ejparrott Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 hauliers going under? None that I know! mate thats a driver over dudley way is so busy they're struggling to get everything done under the tacho timings, and the hauliers that collect the winches we build are always struggling to fit us in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Well come up with a better idea ! shipping and fishing fleets could all have their own way of claiming back,or even an HMRC approved buying ID where they could claim the discount on purchase over a certain volume. All I'm saying is that the red diesel situation must be one of the biggest fiddles going - so sort it out.My brothers mate in Oz has no problems claiming back fuel duty and GST on diesel,if the Aussies can do it and make it work I'm sure we can.(Ish...) Expecting a fisherman to stump up 250,000 to claim it back a year later is ludicrous. And in our case - impossible. HMCE aren't going to pay out to the Bahamas. If we were made to pay for white - we simply wouldn't come to the UK. Consider the losses to the economy. There are arguments that there are only a few ships that burn diesel - but then that's a whole different discussion (Google MARPOL Annex VI). My point is in essence this: Those that use red illegally are a sufficient minority next to those that use red legally and have no other option. Your point of view on white is skewed because you are a road user and have no exposure to large power generation. The quantities burnt in industry (including shipping/fishing) are far in excess of anything that road users would experience. We'd quite happily empty all the petrol stations in Scotland and still have room to spare. And we're not even a large vessel! IMO, the best option is what is in force at the moment. Dye rebated stuff red. Those few dishonest enough to use it are in such a small minority that the losses to the treasury are minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobson Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I live and work on a farm so am pretty familiar with red do's and don'ts, basically you can only use red for agricultural use, there is stipulation to use the vehicle on the road but only within a mile and a half of where it's registered to go from one piece of your land to another. Usage of red for clearing snow/cutting grass by use of a public road is also not allowed, a farmer near us got a fine last year for using his topper to cut the school playing field for free, so they don't mess about. And for those with the attitude of 'ah it's ok they only impound/crush the vehicle' VOSA can fine you whatever they think you've used in back revenue, which could be a lot, and once you've been done for it, you can bet your boots they'll be round checking regularly. Also it's not just a case of dipping tanks, along with the red dye (which on it's own is easy to remove) they add a UV marker unique to each refinery, they then have a filter which goes over your exhaust and can tell what is being burnt and how many parts per litre is red, this means dual tanks and regular flush-through's won't work either. Even for me who could have the old 'oh i must have used the wrong jerry can officer' excuse, and probably get away with it, it's just not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris113 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 im not sure, but if you di it as a farmer for the council you get a fair bit of pay and they insure you under the emergency services insurance, i.e. its hardly ever your fault... An old boss of mine has been given 3 snow ploughs by the council, they paid us an absolute fortune to go ploughing with the tractors, especially at night time. We did ask about red but they never gave us a definitive answer, instead they bought us a white diesel tank and filled it for us to avoid any problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 hauliers going under? None that I know! mate thats a driver over dudley way is so busy they're struggling to get everything done under the tacho timings, and the hauliers that collect the winches we build are always struggling to fit us in! Many hauliers have gone under in the past few years due to high fuel prices and very little paid for the job undertaken. I know of one company that will only pay £380 to haul 28 ton from kent to edinburgh, how can folk survive on that?? Many are busy because there is fewer hauliers in there area to cover their work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Many hauliers have gone under in the past few years due to high fuel prices and very little paid for the job undertaken I read regularly on the internet that the high price of white diesel is causing hauliers to go under. Certainly I agree that the price of white is high, thus the cost of getting an artic from A to B at 8mpg is substantial. But surely the playing field is level as all hauliers have to pay the same price for fuel? So, if hauliers (say) could legally use red then all that would happen would be hauliers dropping their rates and hence back to square one. Is it not a case of too many hauliers out their cutting their own throats in search of business? Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I thought the problem was that french haulage trucks come over with a full tank of fuel (about a 1000 liter) from france, drive round here for a week and return to france without filling up, therefore work cheaper. Red in a truck wont work, what if you drive on the mainland europe? I think claiming money back from the government if it is allowed would work, it is just a lot of paperwork for everyone, plus how do you police that a farmer claims duty on fuel that actually uses to drive his landy on the road? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 not just French trucks, any non UK truck can fill with cheaoer Euro diesel & not bother to fill up while in UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 You do have the european haulier issue, they come full and do work over here without buying our more expensive fuel. They are trying to address it by imposing a tax on them whilst they are using our roads, they can't do this without also imposing it on our own drivers, so they are going to cut RFL for our vehicles so we only see a negligable increase With no hold ups and if i go early enough to miss the traffic I can get from S****horpe to Frome and back in a day in our artic which uses around half a tank, so maybe 200 and a bit litres of diesel. + atleast 12 hours pay + wear and tear. A couple of months ago I got a screwdriver blade through one of the tyres which cost over £300. A local haulier will do us a full trailer for a one way trip to the same place for £280+vat. OK they'll be getting a back load but it still seems pretty tight to me. The thing you have to remember with red is it gives the guy on the ground something easy and immediate to look for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Diesel in France isnt actually that much cheaper, if i get off the boat at oiustreham its only pennies cheaper than it is over here but once i get over the spanish border the price drops by a substantial amount. If rates dropped then everything we bought would drop (knock on effect) as the businesses using the hauliers would have less outlay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 If rates dropped then everything we bought would drop (knock on effect) as the businesses using the hauliers would have less outlay. But then the gubbinsment's revenue take from the duty would drop. That would then force then to make up the shortfall via other methods - for you and me that would equate to more income tax, NI or VAT. So again, back to square one! Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 not only are hauliage companies going under (mainly smaller ones) most of the companies that havent gone under have laid drivers off. thats why they are struggling to get to loads and drop offs on time, as they are trying to get less drivers to deliver as many loads. the only drivers actually driving less are aggregates, or small time contracted in bulk haulage firms. back to subject, fuel costs for lorry drivers are a major problem. some drivers know that one too many stop and the fuel taken to get them back to speed, COULD and i say could because i dont want someone telling me its bull, mean that they only just break even on that run. although none of these will be a real problem for multimillion firms like Stobart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Stobart's strugglin too. A mate who works at their carlisle depot tells me they are looking at doing away with nights out and organising things round day and night men to save money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 one of the big things with larger haulage companies is retraining their drivers for efficiency at the moment. Neighbour of mine is a consultant driving instructor and works for 2 large firms and retrains all their drivers in trying to eek out the mpg on their newer trucks. he reckons most of the newer rigs can get 12-14mpg if driven properly on motorways and A roads - up from 10-12mpg - by proper use of revs and cruise control etc. thats basically a 10% reduction on fuel costs which can equate to millions a year in savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadler Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 For the sake of accuracy it is worth noting that it is not within VOSA's mandate to test for or to apply penalties for red diesel. That is the responsibility of HM Revenue & Customs. These two agencies will often operate joint check points, but they are looking for different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Crikey, I just wondered if being dipped by the Excise was more likely now I've got a 110! (Not VOSA, sorry about that, don't get me started about the number of agencies that can stop you now, that's a different story) Cheers, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It can get very complicated, as I found when investigating what I could use in the tractor. Trailer load of cow**** = Red Trailer load of horse**** = Derv Plough on tractor going to field = Red Plough on trailer going to blacksmith = Derv Going to mow a horse paddock = Derv Going to mow a cow field = Red Going to mow hay but not known what animal will eat it = Red Cutting a hedge in a rural area = Red Cutting a hedge on an industrial estate = Derv Towing a trailer over 20mph = Derv and an HGV license Towing a trailer under 20mph = Red and a car license Having said all that, phone the same people from Revenue and DVLA a week later and you will likely get different answers!!!!! Even they don't know?? Sorry to bring this bit up a little late in the thread but are you telling me that any and all machinery if used solely for equine industry would be subject to running white diesel??? :blink: I was running an Isuzu Trooper in the UK a couple of years ago, I took it home with me after getting it when working in the deep south of Ireland and was on Irish plates, got pulled in with a load of other vans and trucks on the A5 between Shrewsbury and Wrexham, Both VOSA chappie and HMRC guy looked at one another and ushered me out of the lay-by and on my way, talking to good friend who is local copper in that area and he remarked might as well run cherry if I wanted to as the foreign reg private 4X4 is not worth the hassle in dipping or looking into as if it does have a problem then it's a lot of paper, and by the time the fines etc,. are processed you are back out of the country so no point. Guess which pump she was fuelled at from then on hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Horses are a strange case anyway, technically they can't be kept on agricultural land unless it is just for grazing (you need a change of use for anything else). Normally they are not an animal kept for agriculture (no product of theirs is used and they aren't used for farming ..... well most of them), so it wouldn't be a great stretch of the imagination to see that red diesel shouldn't be used for work solely to do with them.I guess if you wanted to argue with revenue and customs you could say they were work horses. At least that is my understanding of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I work horses....... we do the odd bit of ploughing, boat hauling, harrowing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I work horses....... we do the odd bit of ploughing, boat hauling, harrowing... Ah, I knew you did But in fairness I would say you are a minority in the horse world, if you had lots of spare time and money it would be interesting to see what the outcome would be of using red diesel in relation to transporting them to do some ploughing ...... what we need is a pedantic millionaire to test this out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I am a minority. Our horse was one of only IIRC 17 horses that were allowed to work on British Waterways (now CRT) towpaths......yes..thats right...we had to get permission to work the towpath......<head banging brick wall smiley> Sadly we lost him 2 years ago so now there's only 16, but I am working with another one last weekend in September at Parkhead Locks, Dudley. We always used white diesel to move him around, always done with every day cars so no choice. If I had the money I'd be out to get another tomorrow, never mind trying out the red fuel test....and to be perfectly honest, I don't actually know a place where I could fill the 88 or 109 with red, there's a pump for the boats at Braunston, but not exactly near a road, though I suppose a tanker must get there somehow... Anyway, I'm taking us I do apologise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Smith Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Taking a horse to work in a trailer would need white I presume, as strictly speaking if it were a machine it would be "plant" so I would have thought the same rule would apply. And the equine industry has nothing to do with food production unless they are strictly farm working horses, so correct you cannot use red on the road. Off road of course you can use whatever you like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 So get a tractor with a trailer, with a mixture of cow and horse muck, towing at 19.5 mph, running red Diesel, on a tow path, cutting the verge, in down town Birmingham... Watch the revenue mans head implode! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I have to admit...that would be fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPendrey Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 ... We always used white diesel to move him around ... I didn't realise you could run a horse on diesel... I thought most people fuelled their horses with grass and stuff like that? Did you try BP Ultimate Diesel? You might have got 1.5HP from him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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