EU attacking us again?

[Snagger]

This is about standardising regulations, which in theory should lead to a less chaotic and potentially more coherent system. After all, even though the current MOT/SVA etc. works OK, it is far from ideal and it's quite easy to either fall foul or avoid it completely.

If (like the bike petition) you get all frothy and Daily Mail about it, it will come across as ill-informed and reactionary (as 99% of the petitions on that site are). The motor industry is worth billions, this legislation is a big deal for thousands of people and companies and car fans are a tiny and insignificant minority, so there's no point demanding they forget about it. It's also worth remembering that there are an awful lot of badly chavved up motors out there, well-done mods are likely in the minority.

The important thing is that modifications or builds which are safe and reasonable are still permitted without expensive or overbearing type-approvals, while unsafe stuff, be it modified or not, is caught. One suggestion might be to demand all modifications are listed with the insurance co & approved by an MOT tester - yes, potentially more hassle than we currently have, but some hassle is better than an outright ban.

Trailer V5's are a reasonable plan too, given how easily they're stolen.

I agree that something needs to be done about the badly modified vehicles, but surely dangerous mods should be apparent at the existing MoT? Records of mods should be on the DVLA's files and in a space on the V5 in the future, no argument about that, and already have to be informed to the insurers (if you haven't told the insurers about every mod, then you're policy is invalid).

Any mods should be inspected on completing before the car can continue on the roads, regardless of when an MoT is due, and I'm sure most people do this - I had my Tdi retrofit tested and had the whole suspension, braking, steering and axles poored over by the top man at my local MoT station two weeks ago on completing my axle swap. Sadly, some people are less cautious and will chance a bad mod on the road with little thought to others, so formalising this requirement would help. That should nail most of the chop-shop specials out there.

None of that should preclude alterations, though, if done safely, and should not require an SVA test.

As for the trailer V5, why not? Given the damage a trailer can do (or the obstruction a badly parked one can cause), they out to be traceable...

[Julian]

Any mods should be inspected on completing before the car can continue on the roads, regardless of when an MoT is due, and I'm sure most people do this - I had my Tdi retrofit tested and had the whole suspension, braking, steering and axles poored over by the top man at my local MoT station two weeks ago on completing my axle swap. Sadly, some people are less cautious and will chance a bad mod on the road with little thought to others, so formalising this requirement would help. That should nail most of the chop-shop specials out there.

A lovely 'rose tinted specs' idea, but how is anything other than a 'one size fits all' ever going to work when it comes to EU bureaucracy?

Here's an example: Let's say you've done some extensive mods to an old car and turned it into a hot-rod, LSD, Cal-tracs, NOS, blower, some light alloy suspension components etc etc. All in all a beautiful looking car sounding nice and can run the quarter in 10 seconds. How can an MOT tester decide if it's roadworthy? - keeping it straight on the road may be a challenge, how can he tell that the sprag clutch in the autobox won't let go when the NOS is on turning the machine into an out of control fire-ball? The answer is that he can't, he's not a stress engineer and he certainly can't be expected to come to any proper conclusions.

So to conclude, 'chop-shop-specials' or well executed mods, there's no way to tell what's safe and what isn't acceptably safe for the roads so the blanket ban is the only realistic way forward and forward is the way we're going!

Julian.

[Snagger]

Something like that example is going to go through an SVA test, which has more highly trained assessors. But with lesser mods like fitting inertia reel seat belts in place of static line belts, or seat belts where none were fitted before, or fitting a roll cage or winch, then I'd suggest the current knowledge of a typical tester is sufficient.

As a rule of thumb, if a mod can be done with off-the-shelf approved components or direct swaps, like spring and damper options and general accessories, then there should be no trouble. If special components are needed other than simple brackets, then fair enough on safety critical components, a more stringent examination is warranted.

[Julian]

Something like that example is going to go through an SVA test, which has more highly trained assessors..

But this is the crux of the matter, the new EU regs potentially won't allow it,no matter how many SVA tests the vehicle goes through. And they won't allow aftermarket springs and winches. Finito, das ende, la fine etc etc.

Julian.

[discomikey]

emailing my MEP's now, will same email to different MEP's be okay, or will i have to differ slightly?

[Snagger]

But this is the crux of the matter, the new EU regs potentially won't allow it,no matter how many SVA tests the vehicle goes through. And they won't allow aftermarket springs and winches. Finito, das ende, la fine etc etc.

Julian.

Yes, thanks for explaining what I have already stated is the problem. Instead of arguing against me and accepting this proposal with utter apathy, why don't you put that effort into arguing with the politicians who are responsible for all this?

[Julian]

why don't you put that effort into arguing with the politicians who are responsible for all this?

Because, as I've already stated, wolly worded letters and waffle on bulletin boards will do no good. Politicians will do what politicians do, make stupid laws and ignore the views of the public. I've witnessed their activities for many decades.

Here we have talk of trailer testing, SVA testing, MOT testing, informing insurance companies, lists of 'approved mods' etc etc. All this does is continue to provide ammunition for the legislators and knock more nails into our coffins. Our roads are about the safest in Europe and people still bang on about trailer testing with scant understanding of risk!

As I've said before, unless we can protest and create some sort of civil disobedience then we are fsucked, as simple as that. All we can hope for is that we can get some public figure or celebrity like Clarkson to spearhead a campaign - I'm not holding my breath!

Julian.

[q-rover]

To give ou an example of how it will be, here in Norway, any mode 'have' to be recorded on the V5.

Not that many people do though. To get it approved it is a beuracratic rubber stamp of paperwork,

rather than an engineering asessment of the vehicle. If you have TUV documentation, or manufacturer

(vehicle) refrencing to your vehicle (chassis number) allowing the modification, then there is usually no problem.

Do you think Land Rover issues such documents for Britpart 2" lifts, or engine swaps? :hysterical:

[Gruntfuttock]

Yesterday I wrote to 11 MEP's and 1 MP in the East Midlands and South West areas, using a modified version of Simon's original text (thanks). This is the first non-automated response that I've received.

I'll try and get the contact details for the committee members and post them here. We can then send our own personal messages of concern.

Dear Adrian,

Thank you for the message.

As I understand the situation, the Commission only produced its formal proposal on 13th July.

When the standing committees of the European Parliament reconvene in the third week of September, the Commission proposal will be sent to one of them - perhaps to the Transport Committee (of which I am not a member).

The chosen committee will debate it in public, listen to views from lobbyists and the public, write and report, and sometime (perhaps next spring) will vote its recommendations in public to the full parliament. Then there will be a big parliamentary debate in public and a vote on amendments proposed - which will be end of the the First Reading stage.

The other EU legislative chamber (the Council of Ministers) will then react to ours by holding its First Reading and proposing its amendments. Then the parliament has a second reading and so on...

The key for yourself is to make sure that your views are heard by members of the committee. You can do it yourself, or an umbrella organistion (such as "ACE" I believe) should do it for you on a bigger scale.

So a long way to go, and lots of open-ness for the discussions.

All good wishes

Bill Newton Dunn, Lib Dem MEP

www.newton-dunn.com

Gravity is a myth - the earth sucks !!!

[G4FUJ]

There is one MAJOR flaw in the (B)(E)urocrat argument.

In the UK (as an example), only some 5% of vehicle incidents / crashes / whatever one wishes to call them, are caused by vehicle defects.

Whereas 95% are caused by a defect in the vehicle's operation i.e. by the nut behind the wheel / handlebars / controls.

Might be worth reminding the muppets of that, too...

[UdderlyOffroad]

In the UK (as an example), only some 5% of vehicle incidents / crashes / whatever one wishes to call them, are caused by vehicle defects.

Whereas 95% are caused by a defect in the vehicle's operation i.e. by the nut behind the wheel / handlebars / controls.

Good stuff, have you got a source for that we can quote?

[G4FUJ]

Yup.

Institue of Advanced Motorists. I'll try to find the original source doucment, but I suspect it's the same figures as quoted by ACPO etc.

Cheers,

[G4FUJ]

IAM report:

http://www.iam.org.uk/images/stories/Policy_Research/IAM%20Factors%20in%20Accident%20Report.pdf

It's 44 pages long, but the initial figures can be found starting on page 4...

Have tried to find the DfT one - it's in the National Archives somewhere - but like finding a needle in an haystack.

[Julian]

Dear Adrian,

Thank you for the message.

As I understand the situation, the Commission only produced its formal proposal on 13th July.

When the standing committees of the European Parliament reconvene in the third week of September, the Commission proposal will be sent to one of them - perhaps to the Transport Committee (of which I am not a member).

The chosen committee will debate it in public, listen to views from lobbyists and the public, write and report, and sometime (perhaps next spring) will vote its recommendations in public to the full parliament. Then there will be a big parliamentary debate in public and a vote on amendments proposed - which will be end of the the First Reading stage.

The other EU legislative chamber (the Council of Ministers) will then react to ours by holding its First Reading and proposing its amendments. Then the parliament has a second reading and so on...

The key for yourself is to make sure that your views are heard by members of the committee. You can do it yourself, or an umbrella organistion (such as "ACE" I believe) should do it for you on a bigger scale.

So a long way to go, and lots of open-ness for the discussions.

All good wishes

Bill Newton Dunn, Lib Dem MEP

(Bigger text as I couldn't read the original!)

Julian.

[Sheffield]

There are already plenty of laws to ensure vehicles are properly maintained and insured. What is lacking is enforcement. However if the Police are to have sufficient resources to properly prevent unroadworthy vehicles taxes would have to rise. By the means proposed this enforcement and their costs are passed to the citizen directly without going through the public purse. This will appeal to the UK government, as it is in line with the privitisation of public services such as health and law enforcement. I am not surprised at the proposal, we pay large amounts of money to MPs, MEPs, and Commissioners to create laws. We need not be surprised when that is what they do. They did not promise anything about sensible ones.

I am surprised they have not included a requirement to prove valid insurance at the time of test as well.

[Gruntfuttock]

Latest update from Bill, we need to keep an eye on the link to see who the committee are. You can use the ctrl key and wheel on the mouse to increase font size, if your still having trouble

When the committee is decided, and when it gets started, yes, there will be a web-link to the committee's work. The committee meeting (whichever it is) will also be web-streamed so you can (if you wish) listen to its debates.

As an example, here is the link to the Transport committee (which has not met since July of course)

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/tran/home.html

Gravity is a myth - the earth sucks !!!

[western]

Please refrain from 'having a go at each other otherwise posts will be deleted.

[simonr]

While a lot of people feel it's futile writing to MP's or MEP's as they are not interested in anything other than themselves - I don't believe this is the case. I think a lot of the problem is that so many people think this that they do not bother writing.

I spoke to my MP at his surgery over another matter - and he said, most of the letters he receives are either trivial or ask for things that are unlikely to ever happen (legalising drugs for example) but very few are within the remit of what he as an MP can do anything about.

Mine was to ask for better broadband where my business is based. He said there had been many similar requests from Rural areas and raised it with the MP responsible. A few months later, BT announced they were going to bring forward their infastructure plan for this area from 2023 to 2012 - and now I have fibre broadband! Obviously it was not my letter alone - but until this year, BT would not budge on the position that it would not improve until 2023.

While direct action might seem more likely to have an effect - how many instances can you think of where direct action changed government policy? Not many. Poll Tax is the only one I can think of.

I think a polite, well structured letter giving pros and cons does have an effect and can instigate action. I think it's human nature that you are more likely to be swayed by a polite request than a rant or someone trying to bully you!

The more people write - the more likely they are to object (to the proposal). So, how about some 'direct' email writing before you chain yourself to the Downing street gates?

Si

[sean f]

Mostly bills will be passed if the MP's believe they will gain popularity by doing so, this maybe cynical and some MP's will follow there beliefs on issues they feel strongly about. For things they have no real personal opinion on they will either do as there party says or follow what they believe to be public opinion. Whether a law is logic, required, or likely to do any good what so every doesn't always matter. On an issue such as this it is unlikley to form part of party politics and many will have no personal view so a good dose of letters just might work. The pro group is going to be mostly manufacturers as this way they can force people to only buy parts from them and force cars off the road by not supplying new parts. So long as they don't bring the media in on the side of the policy there is a chance, just don't underestimate the power of big industry, MP's need jobs when they are voted out.

Examples of bad laws going through have been the dangerous dogs act which was a famous failure as various people said it was going to be but was carried through on a wave of picture of people who had been attacked.

Similarly the last firearms bill which banned handguns has achieved nothing (hand gun crime has gone up over 400% since the bill as only very few isolated instance ever occured with licenced guns), there own enquire held by Lord Cullen was totally ignored with both parties rejecting every single one of his recommendations, the entire thing was triggered by one person who was already barred from having a gun if the law that stood at the time had been enforced. The law was passed destroying an entire industry and costing over 2.5 billion pounds in compensation to legal people who had there previously legal property confiscated (and quite possible sold on out side the UK) this assumes they ever actually do pay the compensation an awfull lot of people are still owed money which was agreed to be paid back in 1999! (me included).

The fact that something is already covered by existing laws that are not enforced doesn't mean they can't bring in even more laws that also will be ignored just because in the short term it looks good to be seen to do something.

[Julian]

Well, against my better judgement I've emailed my (Tory) MP who I voted for in the last election - not because I have any great affinity towards the Tory party but I really did not want the Labour buffoons in again after they busted the country! Next time around I'm voting UKIP for certain.

Julian.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

<W C Fields Mode On>

" Politicans are like a Babys Nappy - They need changing - Often - And for the same reasons "

</W C Fields Mode Off>

Agree 100%, but if we / everyone else doesn't kick off big time, its only ourselves we can blame, so yes

write away, and then some, I have / will do more later / keep at it

Nige

[Snagger]

I have had three MEP replies, all supportive and citing that this sort of thing is exactly why they want us out of the EU.

While a letter campaign might not be successful, giving up and doing nothing at this stage as advocated by one member is guaranteed to allow this proposal to be accepted and would undermine the legitimacy of any direct action he seems so keen on later. Please, everyone, write to your MPs and MEPs - the link at the beginning of the thread made it really quick and simple (not at all what I expected), and this has to be worth five minutes of your time!

[discomikey]

right... so it may be of little use, and normally ignored. however i thought i would take the 1 minute to sign it as there is a small possibility it may raise awareness if nothing else.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37519

[Tom1809]

Done my bit for now

[Julian]

right... so it may be of little use, and normally ignored. however i thought i would take the 1 minute to sign it as there is a small possibility it may raise awareness if nothing else.

http://epetitions.di...petitions/37519

Spot on the money.

Julian.