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To weld or replace? X-member content with photos....

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Well, I've just been out tinkering with it again. Clearly I don't know my own strength - apparently I can put a ball pein through 2.5mm thick steel. I've now trashed about 1/4 of each end hunting for sound metal as well as knocking through the back face of the crossmember. The jacking tubes are completely shagged too, so it's probably time for me to learn to fit a new one despite my wanting to put it off a little longer. 6mm is appealing, but I think I want something with chassis extensions for sanity's sake (I've had some welding training, but a welder/fabricator I am not), and being picky something that fits...

I'll bung some pictures of my vandalism up when it's light - they may be of some amusement.

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The Blacksheep ones can come with extensions but in kit form (you can see the various bits in my piccie)

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Unless someone know of a replacement crossmember that actually fits properly and is superhuman - I'd love to see someone fit one in 3 hours,including removing towbar,all electrics and the the fuel tank.And then refitting it all after paint/waxoil etc.

Its very easy to quote silly times on a forum - maybe for a bodge job,maybe for some showing off type reason. Makes a mockery for those who are stuck with the job of actually fixing the carp.

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I'd need to jig them to make them up though - one of the things that appeals about the already attached extensions is the job becomes much easier without having to do that. Or would you bolt the crossmember to the body and use the chassis as the jig to mount the extensions?

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I'd love to see someone fit one in 3 hours

I'm budgeting at least a couple of weekends for this... (And that's just fitting)

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I'm budgeting at least a couple of weekends for this... (And that's just fitting)

:o :o

a couple of weekends just for a cross member?!

how about changing an engine in

! :ph34r:

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a couple of weekends just for a cross member?!

Yeah, but it never is "just", is it? I "just" went to replace the rear flexi because I felt it might be perished at the start of the week and now I've made up 3 new brake lines for the thing as well!

This started from "just" needing to replace the engine (and it has taken a lot longer than 42s) :)

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Makes a mockery for those who are stuck with the job of actually fixing the carp.

So how many hours would you quote? Am genuinely interested - The only time I've changed an x-member is on my project, which at that point was a bare chassis, so access was no issue.

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As I said, a garage with all the tools and a ramp available 2-3 hours shouldn't be hard, rattle gun to unbolt stuff, unbolt from tub, mark chassis for cutting, remove it and clean up, bolt new one in place and zip round with a MIG.

This was talking about a pro, someone ho works on LR all the time. If I was doing it I'd expect a little longer, only down to not having quite as good access (lying on my back to weld that is).

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The result of my vandalism last night:

crossmember Lhs

crossmember Rhs

And a view back of the extensions -

chassis extensions

Wasn't even a very big hammer :) The stuff beyond where I've belted through flexes rather well too, so that's way below 2mm. I've seen a couple of tutorials around on doing this so I can work from them; the only remaining issue is the welding. I've got the offer of a short-term loan of a Clarke 135, I'm intending to get something bigger when they announce a VAT free day and I have a buzzbox that'll run 2.5mm rods (3.2 in a pinch). Given this becomes lap joint rather than butt joint, what would people advocate on both kit & technique? Stringer followed by weaving?

Only other thing is which crossmember. For me, I think extensions remain pretty much essential and I'd need more practice before thinking of making them up from a kit. Actually getting the weld penetration I'm less worried about.

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As I said, a garage with all the tools and a ramp available 2-3 hours shouldn't be hard, rattle gun to unbolt stuff, unbolt from tub, mark chassis for cutting, remove it and clean up, bolt new one in place and zip round with a MIG.

This was talking about a pro, someone ho works on LR all the time. If I was doing it I'd expect a little longer, only down to not having quite as good access (lying on my back to weld that is).

That is absloute rubbish - I'll come and watch next time.There is no way - if the car is in a bad enough state to need a crossmember most things will be well rusted up and the electrics will be a nightmare too.Its a damn good days work to do a tidy job,and I've yet to see a crossmember which doesnt require the floor supports cutting off and rewelding at the right angle.

The job is better done over 2 days to allow paint to dry etc and then waxoil the whole job afterwards.

When people make such stupid claims of time to do jobs you can only assume they are the ones responsible for some of the horrible bodges I've seen over the years.BTW I have been running my garage as a LR independant for the last 17years and have been paid to repair LR's in total for 29 years - so I have seen plenty of good and bad in that time.Sadly filler and silicone used to cover pidgeon sh-t welding more often than a neat job.

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if the car is in a bad enough state to need a crossmember most things will be well rusted up and the electrics will be a nightmare too.

Exactly! The cable loom could at the very least do with rebinding to protect the wires - it'd be nice if I don't need to restring any, but I can pretty much bet that I'll lose some connectors too. Getting the tank drained & off offers several opportunities for fun - draining, disconnecting and unbolting all having their own little foibles. Then there's the additional parts that're bound to be needing ordering when something breaks, seizes or otherwise mucks me about...

...I've yet to see a crossmember which doesnt require the floor supports cutting off and rewelding at the right angle.

Oh deep joy.

As for pigeon sh-t welding - well, at least I'm long past that with arc. Working flat, anyway. Straight lines are sometimes more of a problem... No filler (other than weld), but will use a flap disc afterwards.

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Pretty horrifying what lurks in there and I was towing a laden 14ft Ifor Williams with mine :blink:

I'm allowing three days for mine, first day removal of bits inc tank, going to cut an access hole for the fuel pump while I'm at it. Then get a welding mate in for however long it takes him and also spray black sticky sh1te everywhere. Final day to bolt it all back together and sort electrics.

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I had to do mine last winter.Freggan big job on my own!!

My defender is a 1993 90.I got an x member plus exts from Paddocks. well made but to light.I too pull a big trailer. I then got one from MIB or MBI? 3 mm and well made!! I cut the wireing loom. LR must use the same loom for the 110. lots of wire to work with! I took the exhaust off to make room to work and replace the middle box with a pipe.To cut it up i used a 9" and a 4" (tin discs).The mig welder is the only way to go(im just ok with a stick).i Repaced the bump stops and the back brake pipes (copper an flxi0. One needs to be carefull not to "cook" the loom when welding.You will also need new bolts to bolt the tub and tie downs on.I then gave it lots of farm green oxide paint.

Hope this helps. Patrick

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I had to do mine last winter.Freggan big job on my own!!

:) Kind of why I was trying to postpone it.

Cheers for that, I guess I'm just down to sourcing something suitable now. Unless anyone is prepared to spend their time writing an idiot guide to installing a "kit" of extension pieces, I'll go with something with them already attached - looks like the 2 options are http://www.mm-4x4.com/defender-110-rear-crossmember-with-extensions-599-p.asp or http://e.dominohosting.biz/dca/mpsdb01.nsf/MainCatalogue!OpenForm&RestrictToCategory=90_110:%20PANELS_CHASSIS%20SECTIONS (although if Black Sheep get back to me and say they'd fit the extensions first I'd be tempted - less for the strength, more for the no mud traps).

Well, I suppose there's Britpart too...

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Ok you dont have to do it this time.

Any welder will cut out the rotten/tin metal on the outside, plate in 2 or 3mm and finish it flush,And strengthen the jacking ports. You can even put cherquerd plate over the outside. Job done for 1, 2, or even 3 years. But if you look closely at the bottem of chassie rails after the tie down rings or hit them with a ball pin hammer, they will be rotten too! Thats where the water/salt/dirth stays. Plate it for now and buy some time but it will get worse :rtfm: .

Patrick

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Point taken - I think that the amount of welding is getting close to building the thing from scratch, so I'm resigned to learning how to do it properly.

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Fitted one of the Black Sheep kits earlier this year - very well nanufactured and oustanding service.

Took four days in total - average 4/5 hrs day - working on my back on the drive and in the rain.

Very pleased witth end result.

D.

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That is absloute rubbish - I'll come and watch next time.There is no way - if the car is in a bad enough state to need a crossmember most things will be well rusted up and the electrics will be a nightmare too.Its a damn good days work to do a tidy job,and I've yet to see a crossmember which doesnt require the floor supports cutting off and rewelding at the right angle.

The job is better done over 2 days to allow paint to dry etc and then waxoil the whole job afterwards.

No need to go off on one.

To be more precise, I was only on about fitting a replacement, not the extraneous work like rust prevention and fiddling with wiring loom, which I assume the OP has the skills and resources to do himself.

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No need to go off on one.

To be more precise, I was only on about fitting a replacement, not the extraneous work like rust prevention and fiddling with wiring loom, which I assume the OP has the skills and resources to do himself.

Well, I'm no mind reader - I repair Land Rovers for a living,re-reading your posts gives NO indication at all that you are not talking about doing the whole job.And I think you would be struggling to find a "Pro" who would allow a punter to strip and prep a LR in their workshop ready for them to step in and spend "2-3 hours" fitting a new crossmember.

Sorry,your posts indicate that its possible to change a crossmember in 2-3 hours - it may be - but not properly.

I have no wish to "have a go" at any individual,but I get fed up with seeing internet forum posts claiming that repairs can be carried out in very short periods of time for pennies,using cheap parts.Repairing a Land Rover properly is rarely cheap,which is often the reason why they get bodged and have a poor reputation.

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Well I did explain what I saw as the job I was estimating for:

rattle gun to unbolt stuff, unbolt from tub, mark chassis for cutting, remove it and clean up, bolt new one in place and zip round with a MIG.

Sorry you thought I was trying to bodge a repair, I do take great car in any structural repairs to any trucks of my own or other peoples, and wouldn't advocate doing a half assed job ever. I am aware that people do want to keep the cost down of any such repairs, and often would prefer to be able to do the bits that they can, and leave the complex/safety critical bits to the pro.

For what it's worth, I know of two garages round here who would let me work outside their workshop to prep a vehicle, and then drive it in to let them do what they need. Maybe things are more relaxed out here in the country, who knows :)

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Now is the time to get some paint on it,judging by the state of the rest of the crossmember,the rest of the chassis must be crying out for protection - Anything you can do in terms of spraying with old oil/waxoil with extend its life.

I have just had a 300TDI 110 in for mot/service which I did a cross member on last year,the owners wouldnt let me do a full waxoil job after the crossmember job,insisting they would sort it themselves.Nothing has been done... I reckon another 2-3 years and it will be needing another complete chassis or loads of welding.Shame,it could be made to last for years yet.

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Patched, local welder made a nice job :-)

8002287902_28e3ebcb46.jpg

As has just been said "Get some paint on it" & also consider it wont be too long before you need consider a replacement.

T-Shirt, etc

Photo0188.jpg

This was mine about 2 years after I'd done a similar patch.

That's a MIB Heavy Duty one going on.

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100% Agree!

Im a big fan of Hammerite. Powerhose it. let it dry and get under it with a power drill and wire brushs.At least 2 coats of diferent colours so you know you got it covered.But in Ireland and England winter is comming and good drying days are short.

Do it soon

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