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Gareth Dickens

CV joints in a Series swivel hub

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First some back ground as to why.

I've got a 5l V8 and Salisbury front axle and have been told that the front short sideshaft and universals are going to be the weak spot in my drivetrain.

Front Salisbury sideshafts are very hard to come by. If I were to break one I'd be stuck.

I was thinking of fitting defender CV's and have chrome-molly inners made. Since I'm also busy trying to figure out a front disc brake setup I've come down to 2 options, both with pro's and cons.

1) Fit complete RRC front swivels ( Been done before on the forum)

2) Try to fit Defender CV's to my swivel hubs and do front disc conversion as per Gremlin.

Advantages of Swivel change - Use complete RRC/ Defender front setup including brakes ( May even be able to fit vented front discs)

Biggest disadvantage - Steering arm problem and machining the spacer with correct clocking.

Advantages of retaining my series swivel hubs - No steering issues

Disadvantages - Making the caliper mount bracket, machining out the swivel ball or off the CV. Probably have to machine a bushing in place of the side shaft bearing.

What do you think

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I'd do the latter, straightforward milling and turning. A decent engineering shop could do it for you.

Grem has done the hard work on what parts to use and where to site everything.

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I know a Series 1 that is running permanent 4WD with CV's in the front series swivels....I'm not sure but I think they are stage 1 V8 CV's. Doesn't help with your brakes as he's still running 11" drums anyway. I'm certain he said machining was involved, but I don't know what exactly - it was the housings not the CV's.

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Ideally you should take option 2, that way you do not need to mess with the steering rods fouling the springs.

If you are going to take the trouble of having special shafts made then you can machine the series swivels to fit cv joints. The swivels are machined as i had compared them when i converted mine to a stage 1 axle (sorry no pics). The top railko bush and bottom pin are also spaced further to clear the cv. In a ideal world if you manage to get a set of stage 1 swivels you will have half the work cut out. (the outer swivels look the same as normal ones) You will also need to machine the stub axles to fit a bushing in although i belive early rangie stubs will fit. I read somewhere that ashcrofts have supplied thier cv's to fit in a series swivel.

The salisbury axle was also available with cv joints ( i have a friend who bought a new one from blanchards), so shaft already exsist but you probably need to take out a mortagage to buy a pair.

For disc brakes your options are to either copy mine or buy a kit.

On the other hand fitting coiler outers will resolve the brakes and cv issue, but you end up with trying to sort out the steering rods, unless you are running a spring over axle setup.

G

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Ah i also forgot, that the stage 1 cv's are dimentionally identical (the bell part) as defender ones, just the stub shaft is a few mm longer on the stage 1 cv's.

Robotman might also have some knowledge in front axle parts, as he had a set of 24 spline shafts machined shorter to fit in to a rover housing using stage 1 outers and defender cv's in stage one swivels.

G

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A question for Grem w.r.t. Your disc brake conversion. Why did you fit the calipers @ 12:00 position instead of 02:00 ( Caliper at an angle behind the swivel hub).Were you concerned with the shock absorber or the oil fill plug? I assume in front it will interfere with the steering arms.

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Its rather simple, its the only place a land rover 4 pot 90/110 caliper fit!

You can place the caliper any where you wish, but when i tried at the 2 o clock position it just would not fit, with the disc hat hieght i used. Ideally using a better caliper with wider mounting points (wilwood) would make ones life easier, but they are spendy, and the ones i got came for free, hence i had to make them work ( i was also on a mission of using land rover bits ONLY). Its also according to what disc you will use which will determin where the caliper will mount. A shallower hat hieght will make the bracket easier to fabricate, but might make the caliper interfer with the wheel.

I have seen other home made conversions, using other calipers, sliding type, which occupy less space and might fit better. The last one i saw used the front pair from a freelander.

The oil filler is a simple fix, swap the swivels from side to side and the filler is now in front. Shock clearance is also an issue at full lock if the caliper is mounted at the back.

What you need is to mock up everything on a bench and start fiddling with all the components, thats what i did.

G

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My biggest problem with keeping my Series swivels is making the caliper attach bracket. Grem did a great job with it, but I doubt I will find someone to mill me one for a decent price.

I like the series swivels, they seem stronger than the RRC ones. Then again the RRC stubs and hubs seem stronger than the series ones.

So here's what I think I should do:

1) Find discs with a low enough hat section height to fit a RRC hub.

2) Find a caliper that will fit

3) Fit the RRC front stubs to my series swivel. ( little machining required and they're built for CV's)

Little niggles that bother me:

1) I prefer the piston type calipers to sliding type (apparently they're better for mud and dirt)

2) I would like to be able to use a flat 10mm plate as a caliper mount bracket

3) I would love vented discs up front

I might be a bit unrealistic. Please butter my bread on both sides!

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What you want to achive is possible, but you are going to need lots of machining work, and aftermarket calipers i think.

A member here, tonk i belive did some various versions using toyota discs and wilwood calipers, he used a flat plate bracket. Look around the web maybe you find some pics of what he had done.

Grem

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Great, thanks for the info.

I've been staring my eyes square at my monitor at downloaded brake disc catalogues to find a disc for my requirements.

I need a disc:284-298mm diameter

24/25mm thick

<37mm total height (hat section)

153mm ID (inside bowl of the hat section)

5 stud bolt pattern (so I can place the holes for the RRC hub in between)

Any Ideas?

I've got a great VW scrapyard close to me, so I'm sure I'll be able to find calipers off a very fast VW that might be marginally lighter than my Landy. (Only thing is they'll be sliding type)

How bad are sliding type calipers in mud?

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Ah yes, i spent my time looking at the cataloges..........

Try looking at the toyota land cruser range of discs, you will have to machine the discs center hole and drill new holes.

As regards to the sliding calipers, there are many 4x4's that use them so i do not see a probem. Calipers are designed to cope with with the road grime which can be pretty bad in certain places. I would not use car calipers, try to find calipers from at least a large 4x4 of equivalent land rover size, now in your case add the 5l engine and i think a car caliper will not cut it.

G

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I also want to fit early 90 CV's into my Series axle no need to change the brakes tho drums will be fine for my needs. Rakeway can do custome length shafts but the wait is 2 omnths for them to get them and its not cheap. The other option for me that is much weaker but still ok as im only running 33 inch tyres for ALRC events is use KAM shafts I have one that is the older type and can be cut meachined down and the newer ones have the opposite side with the longer splined section which again could be cut machined down.but that means using the weaker 32 spline CV's. On the plus side I could use weakened stub shafts and hopefully after much testing they can be a fail safe point instead of the CV's.

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I measured (quite crudely and quickly) and see about a 10mm difference in ID of the RRC chrome ball and that of the series.

Is the defender chrome ball the same size?

A friend recommended I use the large Landy CV since it is apparently the strongest yet cheapest ones available. I wonder how it compares in size to the RRC CV.

I need to find a knackered one so I can see if they fit.

I intend using shafts very similar in spline count and diameter to the rear salisbury half shafts. (Need to check my facts and figures here as I only saw them briefly and did not have time to examine them properly)

Will see if I get a gap this week to research properly, things at work are hectic at the moment.

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I'd say... sell the salisbury axle and fit Toyota axles, 40/60/70series. You'd get a slightly taller gearing (4.1 instead of 4.7), but with your engine that's a good thing. It'l give you strong axles, cv's and discbrakes. And in the case of later 70series axles rear discs as well. These vehicles are leafsprung as well, steering setup is the same so no fiddling around with that.

All very easy, no special custom parts, you can get spare parts whereever you are.

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They're very pricey here, because they're so popular.

Yes, I would love 4.1 ratios - they will suit my engine and gearbox setup perfectly and lockers for them are easy to find.

Unfortunately have to make do with what I got.

Looking at Chev Lumina discs at the moment. I believe that's what are used in Torrel disc brake kits. Not sure what calipers they use?

Hopefully I'll get a chance this week to get some more mockup spares.

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My axle is, as mentioned, Stage One V8 with a pegged Ashcroft Locker, KAM 24/23 custom shafts and AEU2522 CVs from an early Defender. As also mentioned the stub shaft of the Defender CV is a few mm less than the Stage One equivalent which I overcame by skimming a few mm off the drive flange. I figured if i'm going to have a weak bit in there then 6 bolts away from swapping out is a good place.

Since completeing the rebuild it has done commuting, winch challenging, trialing, laning and pay and play. Hopefully not jinxing it but in 18 months I've only had two fuses and one lamp fail. I'm not gentle with it!

post-3874-0-98880500-1352230460_thumb.jpg

post-3874-0-78593700-1352230487_thumb.jpg

post-3874-0-27262700-1352230810_thumb.jpg

http://www.facebook....40&l=507fde7045 It's Facebook but should be public too.

Original thread. http://forums.lr4x4....opic=49522&st=0

Would I do it again...Probably not. It was spendy and also, well, I've done that now so would do something else next for the interest.

Am I happy with it... Hell yeah! I've given it an absolute pasting and it's held up. Ok I'm only running a 200Tdi and 32" Special Tracks but then that was part of the original equation the axle was designed to work with.

I may change out to 'Mog portal hubs and 37s, that might need power steering mind!

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I've driven more than 100 miles searching scrapyards and have not found a useable disc. Right now I'm leaning towards machining my front hubs and fitting the defender rear discs (298mmx59mmx14mm) to them. It's the easiest option for the short term.

My long term plans are RRC chrome balls, defender or RRC swivel hubs, with RRC stubs and hubs, defender vented discs and calipers.

I'm also strongly contemplating fitting a smaller engine and I'm looking into a Isuzu 2.8 TD and intercooling it or a Mazda/ford 2.5TD. They should be better suited to overlanding and be better for fuel consumption, in which case my drivetrain should be more than sufficient.

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My long term plans are RRC chrome balls, defender or RRC swivel hubs, with RRC stubs and hubs, defender vented discs and calipers.

That will be an interesting trackrid you'll have to use. Normally the diff is pointing up on a coiler axle. Putting a coiler axle under a series gives problems with the trackrod wanting to occupy the same space as the springs. Now you would add a diff to to that as well as on a series axle the diff sits horizontal.

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They're very expensive. Excluding shipping to SA they cost more than what I paid for my landy in working condition.

I need some opinions and some shared experience w.r.t the machined hubs off an Old series (different bearing sizes). Once the webs are removed, how much strength is lost. It's been done before to the fronts and I've heard of no failures, but what about the rears. The back axle caries almost double the weight of the front. Will they last.

I was thinking of having six hubs machined so I may have spares. Then fit the same defender (shallow) rear discs front and back.

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Yes i know they are expensive, but its a nice bit of kit.................................anyway.................

Well my machined front hubs have been there for the past 4 years, with no problems. They are rather overengineered, so you should be fine. For the rears i used front 110 hubs, no need to machine anything, you can also use rangie hubs. The rears are rather simple as its a bolt on job if you get the right bits. Look at my build tread.

As for the cv joint bit, robotman, on his FB pictures has a pic of the stage one swivel from the inside, that is what they look like to compare to a normal swivel. I did the same modifications for spares (swivel pins and railko bushes) The rest is normal series stuff. The inner swivel seals are rangie ones and the mounting cup can be replicated easily in machined ali. The stub axle may also be machined for the bush and seal but i would rather fit a 110, or a rangie one,

One thing that i have never tried is trying to use a coiler swiver housing with a series outer swivel (requires an adaptor between axle casing and swivel), that would only need some kind of swivel seal adaptor, and retaining ring...............hmmmmm i wonder...............well that would only sort your cv joint fitting. The brakes is back to trying to make things work out...............................

At the front i tried using 110 hubs, and they do fit, complete with the disc, but there is no way to squeeze a caliper bracket to mount to the stub axle bolts, even with the lower hat hieght of the discs. You would need to machine the 110 hubs and use a nearly sraight disc to get it all to fit. Look at the various kits available (which i think you did) and you will realise that space is rather limited when trying to use off the shelf parts. Most kits have some custom made bits for it all to work (including mine which has a custom bracket). I do not know if welding to the outer housing is an option. I am not a metallurgist but done right (heat treating, preheating and cooling) it think that iy might be doable, although not advisable...................

One conversion i have also seen used the swivel pin bolts (8 bolts) to secure the bracket and caliper ( you are lucky as i saved the pics from many moons ago) The guy used rangie hubs, discs and calipers but cut off the caliper mounting ears off and mounted the caliper using the bolts keeping the caliper together. (look at the pics) Its a rather unusual way of achiving discs but it seemed to work (i did not like it)

frontdisc1.jpg

frontdisc2.jpg

Well let me stop here................ hope you have some food for thought..................

Grem

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I am very nervous about welding brackets together for my brakes. I have considered using the swivel pin bolts but was worried since they need to be shimmed so not really a fixed distance and extra load on them.

Did you fit a spacer to the rear hubs to correct the 8mm distance difference or is it negligable?

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Yes welding and brakes do not sound like a good mix, i know.

Please explane the 8mm reference, i put spacers but behind the caliper brackets. What spacers are you refereing to? I did not use any spacers on the hubs or stubs.

G

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I wasn't happy with my SIII SWB drum setup so had a go at my own. The axles were desperately in need of an overhaul anyway so I set to designing a solution. I made new hubs and modified 300mm Mondeo vented discs to suit (Defenders use 300mm discs). Standard wheel bearings are used. Peugeot 406 Lucas 57mm calipers mounted on 8mm thick laser cut steel plates.

The main issue was I had to swap over the swivel housings so the filler plug faces forwards. The un-drilled blank oil filler was then ground back flush to allow room for the caliper. I am running on 16" Wolf wheels so there is plenty of clearance for the caliper. I've yet to try out normal 16" wheels with this setup. I have the same hubs at the rear with Mondeo discs and 406 rear calipers. All four discs needed to have the cetre hole opened out and new mounting holes added. Works beautifully. Set me back about 600 quid for the purchasing of parts and machining.

Hours and hours of my own time measuring, modelling in 3D CAD and scouring scrap yards..... priceless! Oh, and those manky Britpart shocks are long gone too.... Good fun though and very satisfying to get it right first time. They are still bedding in and yet they can lock up with enough of a shove, so I reckon a remote servo is on my Christmas list. If anyone has any ideas of where to mount one on a SIII, please let me know.

I am trying to upload a few pictures, but I'mbaffled and a little drunk. :i-m_so_happy:

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The Series hubs and RRC (same as defender) wheel mount surface is the same height. On the series we run drums and on the RRC the wheel fits directly to hub. The RRC wheel studs are shorter than the Series studs. So when you did your front discs you used the old drums to make spacers but I didn't see any spacers for the rear setup. Since the wheel mount flanges are at the same distance before adding spacers, the fronts will be about 8mm more offset after the spacers are added. That's what I'm on about.

Wiggybum, I don't have the facilities to make new hubs, but when you feel stronger some pics would be nice.

I'm trying to find a thread where someone fit Defender swivels to a series axle. I've seen it before, but have not been able to find it since.

They used spacers to fix the clocking and I'm trying to figure out why they used the spacing they did. (20-25mm comes to mind)

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