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Gareth Dickens

CV joints in a Series swivel hub

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I'm trying to find a thread where someone fit Defender swivels to a series axle. I've seen it before, but have not been able to find it since.

They used spacers to fix the clocking and I'm trying to figure out why they used the spacing they did. (20-25mm comes to mind)

I have manged to find the thread and it looks like 1/2 inch per side (total 25mm). I take it they've done that with standard series hubs at the back. I wonder if they compensated for the drum thickness?

Do RRC outer swivel hubs have the same unused fwd steering arm as defenders? Apparently defender steering arms were made for either lhd or rhd so they put a steering arm on both Swivel hubs. Here in SA we are RHD so the RH swivel hub steering arm is unused. ( I may be able to fit the trackrod to the front of the axle)

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The Series hubs and RRC (same as defender) wheel mount surface is the same height. On the series we run drums and on the RRC the wheel fits directly to hub. The RRC wheel studs are shorter than the Series studs. So when you did your front discs you used the old drums to make spacers but I didn't see any spacers for the rear setup. Since the wheel mount flanges are at the same distance before adding spacers, the fronts will be about 8mm more offset after the spacers are added. That's what I'm on about.

Wiggybum, I don't have the facilities to make new hubs, but when you feel stronger some pics would be nice.

I'm trying to find a thread where someone fit Defender swivels to a series axle. I've seen it before, but have not been able to find it since.

They used spacers to fix the clocking and I'm trying to figure out why they used the spacing they did. (20-25mm comes to mind)

Ah i see, yes i use the old drums turned down to make spacers.

For the rears there was no need as they are already disc braked hubs, and the wheel mount surface is the same as a series.

G

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For the rears there was no need as they are already disc braked hubs, and the wheel mount surface is the same as a series.

According to what I measured they are the same.(Placing the series and RRC hub flat where the inner bearing and seal goes and measuring to the wheel mount surface), but then the series has a drum brake added to the flat surface. Meaning (if I'm correct) that fitting a series hub front and RRC hub rear will give you about 16mm (8mm per side) less track than the front if you fit spacers to the front only.

Which brings me to my next question, will series hub wheel studs fit a RRC hub?

They should be longer, but will they physically fit?

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Ok i see what you mean, well i did not think it made such a difference, my spacers are more like 6mm than 8mm. The difference in track is very little and i must be honest i will not even bother to correct it if it is the case. In my case i would just remove the front ones and call it done.

Re studs, i think they might fit.

G

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i fitted discovery hubs and swivels on mine, which gave me disc brakes but also c.v joints. there is some engineering to do to make them work but i think far less than what i have seen on other trucks.

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i fitted discovery hubs and swivels on mine, which gave me disc brakes but also c.v joints. there is some engineering to do to make them work but i think far less than what i have seen on other trucks.

Which disco?

Do you have any pics?

So far the easiest for me still seems to be fitting the RRC chrome balls,swivel hubs, stubs, and hubs.

My only issue is getting my freewheel drve flanges to fit.

So far it's between making the series drive flanges fit, using drum braked defender flanges or disc braked defender flanges.

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photos was the one thing i did not do, i could get some at the weekend but they would just show hubs on truck etc.

i used 200tdi discovery hubs. i got the scarp swivel and cut the flange off so i could fit it to the axle to mark holes. you would need to grind flat the face on the axle then the swivel flange will fit with the axle seal removed. i clocked mine at zero caster as i was using discovery difs. this is all to do with the clearence for track rod. the discovery dif has a flat on its belly and the rod will clear. you should check this to see clearance as you may need to work at -caster. the rod will go though the spring, but if you fit blocks under the axle where it is bolted to the spring they will clear. i drilled and tapped the axle and reused bolts for swivel and bolted it up. i then had to use the half shaft from the disco but as you may know they are longer. so they will have to be cut and weided. they best way i found was to machine down one part and drill other so one part would fit in other. make it so heat was needed to get them to fit then weid with stick. if you did this at one end and not in the centre of the shaft you won't have to worry about the weid pulling it off stright. :D

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Looks like a great mod for discs. Just fitting CV's /Birfields that will stiil be a bit of a bother. The drawings will be very interesting to see. Maybe a next project?

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Hi guys, I've spent ages looking into this and this is the best thread on any forum I have found so far, hope it is ok to sort of hijack it as my requirement is so similar!

I have a '72 88", I am installing a low RPM torquey engine, that should make 300ft/lbs+, that is also very heavy (so uprated suspension issues to sort out) and will be used for road use and dust/dirt/concrete racing. (I know a pretty odd application), so you can see my reason for wanting to upgrade the axle internals. I plan to use ATB diffs from Ashcroft, and not sure about discs yet- my old solid disc braked Defender used to get a lot of brake fade when I was giving it stick so I don't know which way to go with brakes! Vented discs may help if I go down that route...

So if anyone would be kind enough to sum up my best and most cost effective options it would be brilliant. I have access to lathe/CNC mill, full fabrication so dont have a problem with any metalwork!

Many thanks,

TC

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So far I've come to a point where I'm doing the following as soon as the engineering shops reopen after the holidays.

Rear axle:

I'm widening my rear Salisbury by 180mm and will thus be using the same side shaft both sides of the center. (I have a Toyota gearbox)

I have early Defender stubs (the wider ones) and front hubs and drive flanges (matching set) They bolt straight onto the Sals axle.

I have a set of 2010/2011 Defender Puma rear calipers and TD5 solid discs (298mm with the smaller 59mm offset)

I am also fitting a set of Audi A4 2 liter turbo calipers to the rear discs for a emergency/parking brake (No drum on the propshaft - Toyota gearbox)

So yes, 2 calipers per wheel on the back.

Front axle:

I have cut all the brackets from a Defender (Rover) front axle and want the engineering company to cut the axle tubes and fit the ends with the 7 bolt flanges to my Series Salisbury axle, extending it by 105mm per side (210mm total) and ensuring the front and rear track are the same.

This means custom sideshafts in front, I'll get heavy duty ones made.

From there it's all Defender spares outboard. Early Defender 23/24 spline cv's Stubs and front hubs (wider type)and early drive flanges (the deeper ones).

Defender inner and outer swivel hubs with 2010/2011 Puma 298mm vented discs and calipers.

I hope my Series 3 servo and early Defender master cylinder will cope.........

I'll have to see if I can fit my Series freewheel hubs at some later stage......

Any suggestions are welcomed.

Cheers

Gareth

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my old solid disc braked Defender used to get a lot of brake fade when I was giving it stick so I don't know which way to go with brakes! Vented discs may help if I go down that route...

Vented discs, or vented slotted and drilled if you're not doing any muddy offroading.

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Just a few points from my personal experience, but not necessarily helpful to the main technical issues here:

Series wheel studs should fit a later hub, as long as the Series in question is a later SII or SIII. I don't know if they are any longer than the standard RR/Discovery studs, though. Wolf studs definitely fit and are 1/2" longer, but at a cost of £10 each for Gen Parts studs (I wouldn't trust Britpart), it's an expensive alternative.

Brake drums can be turned down to use as spacers. I have done this to fit alloys to my 110 rear axle, where the hub otherwise fould the inside of the wheel centre. The drums are 1/4" (roughly 6mm) thick at that point. There are similarly sized spacers on ebay for less than the cost of an engineering shop's charge for turning the drums, though...

Trying to retain FWH is probably a waste of time - they don't save any fuel, performance gains are entirely illusional, they are prone to damage and leaks, and of course will be disengaged when you unexpectedly need 4wd, requiring to you to get filthy to engage them. They're on my snake-oil list.

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Whilest i agree there probably isn't any fuel benefit from FWH, I do find the steering on my 88 a lot easier with the front hubs disengaged.

However, if it came to a decision between disc brakes OR free wheelers, I wouldn't hesitate to drop the FWH on a 109, all things considered. I don't believe discs worthwhile on an 88...11" TLS drums are more than capable of stopping them.

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Trying to retain FWH is probably a waste of time - they don't save any fuel, performance gains are entirely illusional, they are prone to damage and leaks, and of course will be disengaged when you unexpectedly need 4wd, requiring to you to get filthy to engage them. They're on my snake-oil list.

Been thinking the same about the freewheel hubs ,but there are people trying to convince me otherwise.

I suppose with a Ford 302 V8 using freewheel hubs to reduce fuel consumption is a bit of a waste of time and by the time you realise you should have engaged them you're knee-deep in mud.

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Whilest i agree there probably isn't any fuel benefit from FWH, I do find the steering on my 88 a lot easier with the front hubs disengaged.

However, if it came to a decision between disc brakes OR free wheelers, I wouldn't hesitate to drop the FWH on a 109, all things considered. I don't believe discs worthwhile on an 88...11" TLS drums are more than capable of stopping them.

I do have a Defender PAS box and CV's up front, so going full time 4WD should be easier in the distant future if I destroy thuis gearbox.

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Whilest i agree there probably isn't any fuel benefit from FWH, I do find the steering on my 88 a lot easier with the front hubs disengaged.

However, if it came to a decision between disc brakes OR free wheelers, I wouldn't hesitate to drop the FWH on a 109, all things considered. I don't believe discs worthwhile on an 88...11" TLS drums are more than capable of stopping them.

I do have a Defender PAS box and CV's up front, so going full time 4WD should be easier in the distant future if I destroy thuis gearbox.

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With respect to the fwh issue, I bought and fitted new fwh to my 109 many years ago. While some users report lighter steering, I found no difference there. What I was paying closer attention to was performance and economy, and despite extensive efforts, I was unable to measure even the slightest Improvement in either. They really don't help, but are a contributory factor in swivel pin, Railko bush and propshaft spline wear. I would drive with my hubs engaged at least once a week to make sure enough lubrication was splashed about to minimise the swivel and prop concerns, but after a few years, one of the hubs started to leak. At that point, they were reinstalled in their most appropriate place: the bin.

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