coil springs

[jericho]

hello,looking for advice: i'm thinking of converting my existing 2a chassis to coil springs by attaching necessary mounts etc. the question is this - is there any reason not to use the same suspension system front and back i.e.hockey stick type radius arms and padhard rod at both ends? this set up appears simpler as an add-on than trying to fit an a-frame thing.there must be pros and cons.opinions please.

[Jon White]

Why bother? Its loads of agro, and a PITA to get it all lined up right.

If you really want coils, sell the series and buy a 90 - its just not worth the agro!

Still dont get why you'd want to anyway - my series on parabolics with a few other simple tweaks has far more travel than many a modified coiler! Tonk's, which is very similar, beat all the coilers at the twist off at Beaulieu a couple of years back when he wont the twist off hands down!

Jon

[bill van snorkle]

I have done a few coil conversions to swb series Rovers. I prefabricate all the brackets so that they clamp on to the chassis with 1/2'' diam bolts and nuts both above and below the top and bottom of the box sections, thereby avoiding any welding and drilling to the chassis. It is much stronger this way as the mounts are supported by the whole box section instead of being welded to a bit of dubious possibly rusty tin. It is also readily transferable to another chassis in case of accident damage or rust out.

Anywayto your question. Hockey sticks limit articulation too much, and you would have to graft the brackets for them onto the rangerover/defender/disco axle. more work than mounting ''A''frame to the crossmember ,which is already conveniently located behind the transfercase. However, conversions to old series LandRovers are hardly worth doing, even here in Australia, where a good servicable rust free old RangeRover can be had for around a $1000 ,400quid.

Parabolics may give better articulation, but articulation without proper control is of little value. An axle dangling down attached to the chassis by a bit of bent steel strap isn't going to give much traction compared to torque rods in the real world, away from articulation ramps.See spring shackle reversal thread, below.

Bill.

[jericho]

not looking for more articulation.the reason is a desire for softer ride and disc brakes.i was looking at fitting range rover axles to get the disc brakes and thought it looked as easy to convert chassis to coils as to convert rr axles to leafs plus i would get the prefered ride.as for 'why not buy a defender?' i wont bother to say more than - its not the vehicle i want.

very dissappointed by the defeatist attitude.

the fact that hockey sticks limit articulation,compared to an a-frame,was more the sort of information i was looking for- mr.bill van snorkle- could you explain why? thanks for you help

[bill van snorkle]

not looking for more articulation.the reason is a desire for softer ride and disc brakes.i was looking at fitting range rover axles to get the disc brakes and thought it looked as easy to convert chassis to coils as to convert rr axles to leafs plus i would get the prefered ride.as for 'why not buy a defender?' i wont bother to say more than - its not the vehicle i want.

very dissappointed by the defeatist attitude.

the fact that hockey sticks limit articulation,compared to an a-frame,was more the sort of information i was looking for- mr.bill van snorkle- could you explain why? thanks for you help

Ok Jericho, I added to my first post while you were typing your reply. The reason why hocky sticks limit articulation. If you could imagine the bushes in the hockey sticks being made of metal instead of compliant rubber. The only way the axle could articulate would be to twist the axle housing (banjo housing) because as one hockey stick swings downwards and the other one swings upwards their angles in relation to the chassis are opposite each other. Well the bushings are made of compliant rubber but there is a limit to how far the bushings can distort to absorb the twisting action. With the standard ''A'' frame and 2 torque rod set up there is no such binding of the bushings at the axle. Articulation is limited within reasonable limits, only by shock absorber length, spring stiffness, and available room for the wheels to move up or down. To further your knowledge i would suggest you read the ''3 link'' thread on the International forum on about page 8 by now. It focusses on front suspension but the same principal applies.

Bill.

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm (sort of) with Jon on this one - fitting coils is not worth it on a Series. Fit parabolics, they're about 95% as comfy as coils. Disc brakes you can do various ways - the search button is your friend. I've heard it said that Series chassis aren't designed for the stresses imparted by welding coil mounts on, although there are lots of hybrids out there that seem to survive OK.

IMHO these days it's really not worth the effort given the price of a 90.

My vote, if you really must have a Series on coils, would be to stick a 90 chassis under the series.

[Jon White]

Ditto. Thats what i was trying to say. Either stick with the parabolics if you must retain the series chassis. If not then build a hybrid on a range rover chassis retaining the series bodywork. Its alot less effort to weld series outriggers and bodymounts onto a rangie chassis then it is to try and weld coil mounts onto a series chassis, plus at least the rangie is designed to be that way so can cope with all the stresses and strains!

Otherwise get onto designa chassis and buy one of their coiled series chassis.

At least that way you get the option of things like power steering if you so desire.

Its just not worth welding the mounts onto whats in places probably only tinfoil thick!

Disk brakes are easy enough to do - either make your own or there are plenty of off the shelf kits these days!

Jon

[RPR]

not looking for more articulation.the reason is a desire for softer ride and disc brakes.

I'm with Jon and Fridge on this. If you want comfort, a Series rig is not going to do it for you - ever.

Try out a set of paras with the right dampers and a larger tyre on a 15" wheel and a slightly lower psi. It will give you a ride similar to a 90 and almost as good articulation without getting into shackle changes etc. If that still isn't enough, then you can go coils but think time, effort, pain and money and a large scale.

[bill van snorkle]

I'm with Jon and Fridge on this. If you want comfort, a Series rig is not going to do it for you - ever.

Try out a set of paras with the right dampers and a larger tyre on a 15" wheel and a slightly lower psi. It will give you a ride similar to a 90 and almost as good articulation without getting into shackle changes etc. If that still isn't enough, then you can go coils but think time, effort, pain and money and a large scale.

When you were in Malaysia, If someone had told you to stop waisting your time and money putting Volvo axles under your Landy, and just buy a C303 Volvo instead,would you have listened to him then? Would you listen now ? Me neither, Its illogical but if we didn't do stuff like this we can give forums such as this and Pirate the flick and go on Discoweb.

Hows the V8 conversion going BTW?

Bill.

[FridgeFreezer]

Bill, the distinction here is that we're talking about what's worth modifying and when it's worth just replacing a bit with something more suitable. A Land Rover on portals does have certain advantages over just buying a C303 depending on what you use it for. I admit for a lot of people it would be better just to buy a 303/4 and have done with it, but there are a few places a LR on portals would be preferable to a 303.

Aaaanyway, back on topic, the issue at hand is: Is it easier to convert a leafer landy to coils, or to convert a coil chassis to accept a leafer body & drivetrain? I reckon the 2nd, given how easy it is to find a surplus RR chassis in good nick these days.

[RPR]

When you were in Malaysia, If someone had told you to stop waisting your time and money putting Volvo axles under your Landy, and just buy a C303 Volvo instead,would you have listened to him then? Would you listen now ? Hows the V8 conversion going BTW?

Bill.

Bill,

Please. This sort of thing is not really useful and collaborative commentary. I think we have established to everyone's satisfaction that I'm an idiot incapable of taking good advice

No, I wouldn't have listened, but I bloody well should have. I didn't listen to you about not putting an SIII box behind a V8 - but I will live to rue the day. I don't actually expect our man to TAKE my advice, but I never let the facts and details get in the way of my offering an opinion.....

(BTW the conversion is coming along - pulling the Tonka's 2.25 after years of layers of "re-engineering [read bodges] was rather tricky and time consuming. The wiring is an utter disaster, and some interesting "issues" were discovered. The V8 is finally actually in and the RR rad and oil cooler should be in by end of the week. Should have some piccies but I can't find them....)

[dirtydiesel]

Mr jericho,

If you want to coil your series and you think you are capable of doing it, go for it!

You'll be far happier doing what you want to do, rather than just buying yourself a f**king 90", after all what would be the satisfaction in that?

I quite like panard rod and radius arms front and rear, i think they are far superior to any other suspension system.

They are totally bombproof, give very good torque control, offer excellent lateral stability, good handleing on the road and off road they are very predictable.

So what if they don't give lots of fashionable "bling" axle travel, they travel well enough for me with the added bonus that my axles are never going to fall off.

[bill van snorkle]

Mr jericho,

If you want to coil your series and you think you are capable of doing it, go for it!

You'll be far happier doing what you want to do, rather than just buying yourself a f**king 90", after all what would be the satisfaction in that?

I quite like panard rod and radius arms front and rear, i think they are far superior to any other suspension system.

They are totally bombproof, give very good torque control, offer excellent lateral stability, good handleing on the road and off road they are very predictable.

So what if they don't give lots of fashionable "bling" axle travel, they travel well enough for me with the added bonus that my axles are never going to fall off.

Have to disagree with Dan about Bling axle travel, mainly because it's in my nature to be disagreeable at times, but also for technical reasons. 1/ If you don't have difflocks, articulation will keep your wheels on the ground longer to maintain mobilty. 2/ Even If you do have difflocks, LandRover axles, cv's etc are marginal at best so the longer you are able to keep your wheels on the ground in extreme terrain, the less stress these components will be subjected to. 3/ a correctly designed articulate suspension can keep the shiny side up when less flexible designs give up and turn turtle. Dans beloved Unimogs (which I also like)are a good example of a correctly designed system. Humvees (see twist off gone wrong thread) are a good example of how a more rigid system can cause instability. If you do decide to go with hockey sticks, be sure to leave plety of room under the axle tubes for the axle to move. A friend of mine who should know better didn't leave enough room resulting in cracked and twisted banjo housings, twice I might add.

Anyway I could argue several more points but I must awayfor now and earn a living.

Bill.

[EFILandRover]

I am currently putting coils under my 2a. I had just copied the rangy geometry, and used a rusty chassis as a donor for mounts, but the coils on the front want to be where my swivels are (toyota axles) so I am using some old coil over now, but am going airbags in the near future.

[Spud]

One small point. A quite important one..... If you modify the chassis by changing the suspension you will need a SVA test done. There is also a possibility that they will Q plate it as well. It should be picked up at the next MOT, so not worth it.

[FridgeFreezer]

If it gets SVA'd there are two possibilities:

1) It will get a Q-plate

2) It will fail, you'll have to go away, spend a load of time and money, come back, and it will get a Q-plate

Makes me glad my 109 is completely standard

[dirtydiesel]

One small point. A quite important one..... If you modify the chassis by changing the suspension you will need a SVA test done. There is also a possibility that they will Q plate it as well. It should be picked up at the next MOT, so not worth it.

Theres always one PC muppet isn't there

And just why should it be picked up on an mot?

[FridgeFreezer]

You need either:

- A friendly MOT inspector who doesn't pick up that sort of thing

or

- Kwik-Fit MOT inspector who wouldn't know one end of a LR from another, let alone that it should be leaves not coils.

My last two MOT's the certificates said "SUV" and then, more worryingly, "Green 90" quite how he got the labrador into the engine bay to read the VIN plate I have no idea

[LR90]

You need either:

- A friendly MOT inspector who doesn't pick up that sort of thing

or

- Kwik-Fit MOT inspector who wouldn't know one end of a LR from another, let alone that it should be leaves not coils.

My last two MOT's the certificates said "SUV" and then, more worryingly, "Green 90" quite how he got the labrador into the engine bay to read the VIN plate I have no idea

Not a bad deal though. Just roll your green 90 up to kwik fit each year and come away with an MOT and new brake pads (the labrador can smell worn brake pads at 50yds apparently).

[Spud]

Theres always one PC muppet isn't there

Fine, but don't go bitching when you get the vehicle crushed, plus a fine along with a conviction for fraud. It's nothing to do with being 'PC', more a question of whether you want to do it properly or not. Guess who the DVLA are targetting????

[FridgeFreezer]

Guess who the DVLA are targetting????

Car criminals? People who ring the ID's from write-offs onto stolen vehicles? People who cut'n'shut vehicles? People who falsify insurance claims? People who try to register death-trap kit cars held together with blu-tak as the ford sierra the rear diff came from? People who try to avoid road tax by registering a 100" V8 coiler hybrid as a 1960's SIIa that donated a front wing? People who steal vehicle identities and use them to conceal stolen vehicles used for crime?

Mind you, they didn't care about checking the identity of my Nissan when I told them I wasn't paying £20 for the priviledge, they just gave in and posted the V5 to me so there goes that theory

[V8Nick]

Take the mick all you want, but Spud does bring up a valid point.

If you weld coil mounts to the chassis (or buy a new 'series' coil sprung chassis) you will loose the identity points for the chassis, and therefore the identity of the vehicle. The vehicle would then have to have a Q plate and would loose it's historic status (which means that you have to pay road tax).

If you fail to declare the modifications and get caught (which seems unlikeley at the moment), you will loose the vihicle and be facing fraud charges fot the road tax you have been dodging.

At the moment the DVLA (or is it C&E?) seem to only be interested in the occasional Defender running on Series 2 plates and similar easy results, but that could change in the future.

I don't support this law, I'd rather we were allowed to be able to fiddle with our vehicles to our hearts content, but I'd hate to see another series go to the crusher, esspecially when so much work has been put into it.

Cheers, Nick

[backball]

Does anyone have bill van snorkle's contact details? I'd like to find out more about his unique way of coil conversion

thanks

[Mark]

I believe Bill is on holiday at the moment for a few weeks but a pm from here once he returns will almost certainly put you in contact.

Mark

[MECCANO]

also mr jeri... dont you already have a tdi with the addition of a 5 speed, this combined with the axle change/ and suspsension will push it over the points system.