2/300tdi's exhaust port spacing

[Aragorn]

could anyone with a 2/300tdi exhaust manifold or cylinder head measure the spacing between the exhaust ports and the dimensions of the ports themselves

looking to see if i can adapt a tubular manifold to fit

cheers

[western]

don't forget the mounting for the turbo

[Aragorn]

turbo flange is a standard t25 flange...

no-one got a head/manifold laying about??

cheers!

kev

[dirtydiesel]

turbo flange is a standard t25 flange...

no-one got a head/manifold laying about??

cheers!

kev

Where are you?

I've got one you could have for a drink.

And strangely enough i've just finished buiding a tubular manifold for the 300 in my G.

[Turbocharger]

Any pics of your tubular manifold? I've got one in the offing somewhere...

[Aragorn]

Where are you?

I've got one you could have for a drink.

And strangely enough i've just finished buiding a tubular manifold for the 300 in my G.

im just looking for dimensions, as this is planning stages of a long term project! but cheers for the offer - if you could measure port spacing that would be good tho..

im hoping i can adapt the manifold from another car like the nissan 200sx or toyota mr2 but need an idea of the port spacing first!

any pics of the tubular manifold youve made? what turbo are you fitting to it? i was thinking along the lines of a escort cossie t28 would be a nice upgrade from the original t25 unit and should be good for 200-250hp

cheers

[white90]

200bhp from a TDI ? some o rings for the head may well be required.

you can fit the 2.8TGV unit as a nigh on direct swap

I have pics of the completed job.

they belong to some one else on here so I'd need to seek his permission to post them.

[Aragorn]

200bhp from a TDI ? some o rings for the head may well be required.

you can fit the 2.8TGV unit as a nigh on direct swap

I have pics of the completed job.

they belong to some one else on here so I'd need to seek his permission to post them.

ive heard of a few folk with 170ish with little more than cooler and more boost

bigger turbo, headwork and a revised cam profile should help somewhat towards my target. might need to look into ceramic coated pistons to handle the temps tho...

if you could get permission for those photos that'd be ideal

the original query still goes unanswered, can anyone measure the port spacings please?

cheers

kev

[Porny]

ive heard of a few folk with 170ish with little more than cooler and more boost

bigger turbo, headwork and a revised cam profile should help somewhat towards my target. might need to look into ceramic coated pistons to handle the temps tho...

if you could get permission for those photos that'd be ideal

the original query still goes unanswered, can anyone measure the port spacings please?

cheers

kev

Even with all that, I reckon you struggle to break 200bhp.....

[Aragorn]

stock engine produces 110bhp at 0.75bar

intercooler and pump tweak plus performance filter and exhaust will likely raise that to 135ish

raise boost to 1.5bar and if ve remains constant should achieve 190ish bhp (135/1.75*2.5)

other stuff should take it past there and more boost is always possible too

plus larger turbo will have less restrictive exhaust housing too meaning better flow

kev

[dirtydiesel]

Here's a few pics of my tube manifold,

Uses a standard T2.5, untill i can sort out a vvt

[Porny]

stock engine produces 110bhp at 0.75bar

intercooler and pump tweak plus performance filter and exhaust will likely raise that to 135ish

raise boost to 1.5bar and if ve remains constant should achieve 190ish bhp (135/1.75*2.5)

other stuff should take it past there and more boost is always possible too

plus larger turbo will have less restrictive exhaust housing too meaning better flow

kev

Stock engine= 111bhp at 1 bar

Big intercooler, properly set up pump, standard ish boost and you'd be looking at about 145bhp.

Raise boost to 1.5 bar and increase fueling to suit - properly set up with matched injectors, a decent intercooler, a better exhaust and you'll probably be getting 180bhp or slightly more.

Ported head, better intake, straight through exhaust, modified injector pump (larger internals), matched injectors, possibly a 'tweaked' cam (or one that does what it's supposed with reagrds to lift etc) a wired block to cope with increased cylinder pressures, and a better turbo.....

Going big on a turbo is ok, but then you end up with loads of lag... not really what you want from a diesel engine that doesn't really rev that high... would probably be better with a VNT.

With this you'd get 200bhp or possibly a shade over. Torque would also be high.

Then you could start playing with LPG/Propane or even nitrous... this probably wouldn't help that much... apart from helping the engine go bang earlier.

But you'd have to watch cyilnder pressures and EGT...

That's just my opinion though, so I may be proved wrong.

We could start comparing bmep's etc etc

Ian

[MECCANO]

what wall thickness tube did you use for the manifold?

Cheers

[SOA 93]

Stock engine= 111bhp at 1 bar

Big intercooler, properly set up pump, standard ish boost and you'd be looking at about 145bhp.

Raise boost to 1.5 bar and increase fueling to suit - properly set up with matched injectors, a decent intercooler, a better exhaust and you'll probably be getting 180bhp or slightly more.

Ported head, better intake, straight through exhaust, modified injector pump (larger internals), matched injectors, possibly a 'tweaked' cam (or one that does what it's supposed with reagrds to lift etc) a wired block to cope with increased cylinder pressures, and a better turbo.....

Going big on a turbo is ok, but then you end up with loads of lag... not really what you want from a diesel engine that doesn't really rev that high... would probably be better with a VNT.

With this you'd get 200bhp or possibly a shade over. Torque would also be high.

Then you could start playing with LPG/Propane or even nitrous... this probably wouldn't help that much... apart from helping the engine go bang earlier.

But you'd have to watch cyilnder pressures and EGT...

Regarding the original post could you not just make a template?

Andy

That's just my opinion though, so I may be proved wrong.

We could start comparing bmep's etc etc

Ian

BHP means very little other than to sell cars and brag IMHO, its just a calculation of torqueXRPM, Torque being the real measure of power.

A good few years ago chips were sold for normally aspirated cars that bragged a 10/15% increase in BHP, they were little more than moving the rev limiter allowing the engine to attain higher revs thereby increasing the BHP, which was actually true, just that it didn't give you any more power and the only difference it made to the driving experience was allowing you to scream it in 1st and 2nd gear.

Personally I'd like to get 300lb/ft from my TDI I think that would be enough, and if I could get it to come in at around 1800rpm and hang on till about 3000rpm I would be very happy.

A certain Mr Fearn allegedly gets 500 or 600lb/ft from the 6 cylinder BMW oil burner, and before anyone says , yes but he's using twin turbo's, they only change the way the power is produced holding the torque up further into the RPM. Other than the intercooler and twin turbo conversion the engine is standard, try doing that with a RV8.

A good indication of how powerful an engine is, is the area under its torque curve on a graph, everbody seems to talk BHP just like people rate stereo's and speakers in watts, trouble is sound is measured in decibels not watts, but 'watts' sells stereo's. Engine Dyno's and Rolling roads measure torque and calculate BHP, Bhp is biased towards the typical petrol engine, diesels can be alot more powerful but not have as much BHP.

I shall keep tweaking the TDI till it gives the power I want/need and then get it dynoed to see how much that actually is.

If your aiming for 200BHP? Where? 2000rpm? Unlikely, 5000rpm unnecessary.

200BHP @ 2000rpm is alot more powerful than 200BHP @ 6000rpm.

If you want to talk about realistic BHP figures a good man to talk to is Roland at ACR, he's had alot of stuff on an engine Dyno, standard TDI,s turn out 90BHP in real life just like 400BHP TVR engines turn out about 250BHP.

Hybrid From Hell's V8, he knows he's got enough, comes in low enough holds on long enough, and puts a huge smile on his face, perfect engine.

Going in search of a figure like 200bhp does not mean you'll have a good engine, the spread of power, where it comes in, is far more important, its what makes the VNT' so good (available as kit from Allards to fit TDI's, for those with deep pockets only).

All the stuff above works on a TDI and you can do it a bit at a time until you get what you want, you just won't be able to brag about it down the pub that's all.

Just my take on it......cough.

[Andy]

pump tweaks, intercooler & upping the boost to 18psi has given my TDi plently of power as far as im concerned. probably about 130/140bhp if the stock figure was right. hopefully the torque is up by the same amount (it feels it) so thats around 250lb/ft. i cant remember the last time i run out of power, its always grip that runs out now. so ive got enough grunt for me. i get 25-26mpg out of a disco on 32s with a detroit (which i told kills mpg) & various toys so its heavy. oh btw im running 60% SVO just to be different.

the biggest gain in driveabilty was from the pump tweaks. i now have power from a lot earlier in the rev range. if i wasnt running oversize tyres on stock gearing i'd have stopped on just pump tweaks, it made it so much better to drive.

i know a bloke who got LPG injection for his 300, been told it really goes like stink with that but not seen it in the flesh.

a mate i used to know worked for a LR specialist & told me they can get 250bhp from a 200 & 300bhp from a 300 but they dont last very long in that state.

why do you want 200bhp from a TDi? i cant see a real need for it unless your racing?

[Aragorn]

there seems to be a wide variety in peoples expectations from certain mods on the tdi motor so its hard to work out exactly where it will end up

the 200bhp figure at 4000rpm along with a even torque spread from 1800ish rpm will provide the approximate performance figures that i'd like to have in any vehicle

the gt20 fitted to the td5 is good for 195bhp so thats a viable replacement although it may be reaching the top end of its working range at those power levels

garrett vnt17 used on the golf pd150 is another option

once i get the finances together i'll work through each of the stages involved and see how close to my target figure i get

as a comparison theres a highly tuned 1900td pugeot engine in this months ppc producing 170bhp with basicly the mods mentioned here, weve got 600cc more to get 30hp, it should be possible!

might be interesting to see how different the 2.8tgv head is to the 200tdi item seen as its larger capacity and more power as standard.

cheers for the manifold pics, any reason the turbo's mounted backwards?

[Bush65]

...you can fit the 2.8TGV unit as a nigh on direct swap I have pics of the completed job. they belong to some one else on here so I'd need to seek his permission to post them.

If you are referring to mine, you are free to post them.

Regarding fitting the 2.8TGV turbo to a 300Tdi. The manifold and turbo from the 2.8TGV bolt on. The oil delivery and return lines from the 2.8TGV need to be modified to fit.

I did not use the stock 300Tdi air intake or delivery hoses, or the stock exhaust, so I can't comment on them. Other than, I believe the exhaust would need rework, as the down pipe is at the rear.

[Bush65]

BHP....its just a calculation of torqueXRPM, Torque being the real measure of power...

I understand your point, but I am a pedantic b&st&rd.

Technically, in science and engineering:

Work is force X distance. Take driving up a hill for example - the work done, is the sum of the resistance (force) X the distance travelled.

Power is the time rate of doing work. Then power is force X distance / time. Taking the previous example, divide the work by the time taken. So more power will be required to drive up the hill in a shorter time.

BHP, is one of several units of measurement of power.

Torque is force X radius (of application of the force). Time is not involved in any way, so it is not a measure of power.

Power is Torque / time.

...A good indication of how powerful an engine is, is the area under its torque curve on a graph...

Yes. Because Torque is measured on the vertical axis and revs per minute on the horizontal axis, the area is an indication of Torque / time.

I agree with your points and your post highlights important, valid concepts.

Unfortunately power and torque are two difficult measurements/concepts to expess in a way that people can feel separately through their seats. Possibly also because people think an engine which is capable of producing 200 BHP, will produce 200 BHP when they push the pedal in any circumstances.

[Turbocharger]

The issue is that when you push the pedal you're demanding force (torque), not speed. Modern (car) throttle maps are set up on a torque demand principle - mechanically governed engines like a 300Tdi run on a speed-demand principle, albeit with significant controller droop.

Dirtydiesel - nice manifold! I've supposedly got a chap making a similar effort for a VGT in the offing, but I might be on the phone to you if nothing comes of it.

[Aragorn]

Dirtydiesel - nice manifold! I've supposedly got a chap making a similar effort for a VGT in the offing, but I might be on the phone to you if nothing comes of it.

are equal length primarys as important in turbo manifolds as they are in n/a applications? the scavenge effect from the longer runners will be substantially different to the short ones but im not sure if this will make much difference on an engine with no overlap on its cam timing

[dirtydiesel]

what wall thickness tube did you use for the manifold?

Cheers

1.4mm, it will need a turbo brace if it's to last longer than 5mins

cheers for the manifold pics, any reason the turbo's mounted backwards?

There's nowhere for the exhaust to go if i mount it the "right" way round.

Dirtydiesel - nice manifold! I've supposedly got a chap making a similar effort for a VGT in the offing, but I might be on the phone to you if nothing comes of it.

It's not really all that nice, it was just something i've quickly knocked up to prove/disprove to my thougts.

I could be persuaded to make something a lot nicer

[T1G UP]

i've made a few for the VAG 20v turbo engine with an IHI roller bearing turbo and as a rule they run alot smooth power due to the exhaust PULSE getting to the turbo equally spaced rather than all at once.

got a 200 engine in the old unit,when they finish my new unit i'll get the head and make another with a gt tdi turbo. good for 190 from a 1.9 litre engine.

vw 20v t ss manifold

[rick]

If you want to be really pedantic with the exhaust design, equal length tubes and a merge collector such as this

so that velocity is kept up and no heat energy is lost with expanding gasses in a box type collector before getting to the turbine.

I'd be a little worried about the life of mild steel with so much blooody heat in the manifold. I think this is why cast iron is used almost exclusively in road type applications, and inconel the material of choice in race ones, with 321 stainless second on the list for temps under 1800*F.

[rick]

i've made a few for the VAG 20v turbo engine with an IHI roller bearing turbo and as a rule they run alot smooth power due to the exhaust PULSE getting to the turbo equally spaced rather than all at once.

got a 200 engine in the old unit,when they finish my new unit i'll get the head and make another with a gt tdi turbo. good for 190 from a 1.9 litre engine.

vw 20v t ss manifold

some times gone into that one. B)

[MECCANO]

any recommended places to get hold of pipe?