ejparrott Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If the experts in the forum would be so kind, I would very much appreciate an opinion on new 'rules' that my 'club' have brought it for its winter offroading events. The situation: The days are held as RTV events. That is all vehicles must have valid MoT, road fund licence (be it paid for or free) and insurance. Essentially you must legally drive it there to be allowed to play. You must be a fully paid up member of the club to attend, joining on the day usually permitted. The run up: Last year, some nobs were caught drinking (alcohol) and smoking cannabis and were evicted from the site and their membership cancelled. At the first event this year, some bloke let his kid drive, who could barely see over the wheel, and nearly demolished a trig point on top of the site. He was later banned for letting someone drive who had no license. Last week, a disco on road tyres ran away down a hill and ploughed into a tree. It was later decided that he should never have been where he was with his skill level anyway, never mind the fact the disco had completly unsuitable tyres for the conditions. The fallout: The club has now imposed a set of rules, mostly common sense and thats great, and scrutineering before the start of the day - also great, don't get me wrong, vehicles must be safe and road worthy. Also included are the requirements for seatbelts to be worn where fitted - in line with C&U. The 'issue': They're now trying to impose a requirement that all rear seat passengers, be they forward facing or sideways facing, must also wear seatbelts, at least a lapbelt. The upshot of that is that I will no longer be able to go, as I rear seat it in a friends 88 hybrid. Now, ignoring that I might be a bit grumpy at that, does the club have a right to make people fit rear seatbelts? My understanding is that once a seatbelt is fitted it must always be there, and must always function as designed my the OEM, otherwise its an MoT fail. That places extra burden come MoT time, not to mention the fact that there isn't a seat belt or anchor that I'm aware of designed for sideways rear seats in a series 3, so how can it conform to OEM? I was also understanding that seatbelts and sideways facing seats were a bad combination in the event of an accident. Like I say, ignoring that I'm a bit grumpy about it, I would like an opinion, the forum is always so knowledgable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If it's an 88, there was no requirement for rear seatbelts then I believe? SO you should conform to C&U anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 I believe rear seatbelt requirements came in in1986? Don't know anything about post '86 90/110 sideways rear seats and belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 88" or 1988 vehicle? Sorry, from your post I thought it was an 88" meaning pre-84, so no requirement....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPendrey Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I must confess, I don't know if there are 'rules' about making rules... but if it is a private club it is surely able to make any rules it wants, even if that alienates current members. COnnected with the seatbelt issue, we've had child seats installed in the back of our family car for the last 9 years, and the MOT chaps always note "unable to inspect seat belts", but have never failed the car on that account. So, I would follow the principal that if the belt isn't there at the MOT they can't fail it on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 88" or 1988 vehicle? Sorry, from your post I thought it was an 88" meaning pre-84, so no requirement....? it applies to S-reg and Y-reg 88" series 3's...whatever years they are...pre '84 anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Pretty sure there's no C&U regulation for rear seatbelts fitted at that age, so you should be OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Pretty sure there's no C&U regulation for rear seatbelts fitted at that age, so you should be OK? Thats what I said, there's no requirement under C&U, and no provision by the OEM for seatbelts on Series rear bench seats. Basically, they're all ****ting bricks because of the disco that ran away last week. They're saying that anyone 'loose' in the back of a series could have had an impact on the people in front, broken necks even. They're now panicing that they could have all sorts of H&S stuff, or death and injury claims, or even a repeat of an accident a few years ago when a driver was killed after being struck on the head by a loose hilift jack. Don't get me wrong I'm all for safety, and yes a Hilift should be secured properly, but I can't see a 'right' to force people to fit seatbelts to rear bench seats, or not carry passengers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Taking aside the technical issues regarding c&u, as a director of a club - and therefore legally liable in the event of a disaster - I would suggest you have three options 1. Leave the club because you don't like the rules 2. Comply with the rules 3. Become part of the committee and part of the rule making process to have your say You don't mention if it is an MSA club or one with alternative private insurance, but it may be the case that the rules are being changed to comply with existing rules from above which have previously flaunted, which is quite common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Our local p&p - Bures is all passengers and driver seat belted all the time , tbh I don't see the problem , why not be as safe as possible? The only time wearing 'belts is questionable is when in or near water..... Having been on a couple of club commitees I can see the point cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 my 110CSW is 1989 & no factory fitted rear lapbelts for the rear most sideway facing seats, they [the club] cannot make you modify your vehicle AFAIK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The MSA is in the thinking that vehicles must comply with construction and use. i.e. They don't like my ground anchor overhanging the front even though it is full-offroad. I found this out from the MSA itself after sending a picture. It was very usefull for feedback on msa direction I can't RTV my S1 with Staffs and Shrop land rover club as it doesn't have front seat belts. So this sort of thing has come up before. I think a seat belt rule is a good one. It maybe bad in certain circumstaces, but on the whole the best place to be is in the vehicle, not thrown out just before it rolls on you. For referance Chris Perfect had a fencing buisness until his trialer seat belt failed in a rollover. Chucked him out and rolled on him, which is why he started selling offroad springs and things. It didn't do him any good at all. Another offroad mate got chucked out of his Miur Hill tractor. Like they say, stay in the vehicle and hang onto the steering wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hang on, let me get this right. You're into offroading where's there a chance that you could roll, slide, flip etc.....and you're complaining that you need to wear a seatbelt ? A small bump to the head could possibly easily result in death. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I'm assuming they don't run under MSA regs as you can't have rear seat passengers in an MSA cross country trial (Tyro trials allow for it but only in production vehicles which must also have seat belts etc...). MSA regs don't require seat belts although many clubs (including the club I trial with) require them.. Essentially the club can make up whatever rules it likes within the bounds of any regulatory body (MSA, insurance company stipulations etc...), nobody is forcing anyone to compete or to change their vehicle to comply with any particular set of regs. If it's genuinely a club, rather than just a convenient grouping, then normally rules and regulations are only changed at the AGM so make sure you attend and make your voice heard. As someone who has served on the committee of off road clubs for much longer than I care to remember, one of the most irritating things is poor turnout at an AGM where a rule is passed and then having people that couldn't be arsed to turn up to the AGM moaning about it afterwards. The fact that there have been accidents already is bound to make those who could be held responsible look at the rules to try and prevent further injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 What they said: 1) The club can do whatever it likes 2) IMHO you're a prat if you're off-road with no belt anyway. 3) We have exactly the same rule in our club for all of the very good reasons mentioned above. C&U / classic originality can get stuffed, if you're willing to off-road it you should be willing to screw a belt to it, we don't want to be scraping someone's brains off the floor for the sake of £25 worth of seatbelt. 4) If you were running a club and stood to be held accountable for someone getting killed on your watch, you'd probably have the same rule, or run a mile from the idea of running a club. If you bolt a belt in where there's not "supposed" to be one, the MOT tester can only test that it works and is securely mounted, it's an MOT not an SVA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I bolted eyelets with spreader plates into the front of my 86" then had clip in lap belts (part of a 4 point belt from a racer) to be able to compete in RTV events, no big deal to fit or intrusive to the look. It is basic safety off road, generally didn't have them fitted on road but that was my decision in my time, and it never got used on faster roads much as it just wasn't fast enough. For MOT I just unclipped the belts although it would have passed with them, just made the test a bit shorter!. I am very surprised any club allows rear seat passengers at all on anything more than basic drive rounds and to allow unbelted passengers is just stupid. I club officials are responsible for ensuring they have rules to ensure safety at there events and that they then enforce them or they WILL be held accountable, potentially up to ending up in court on manslaughter charges (although I doubt it would get that far in practice unless they where monumentally stupid). What you do on your own out side of a club controlled event is entirely up to you but inside an event you comply to there regs or leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 my 110CSW is 1989 & no factory fitted rear lapbelts for the rear most sideway facing seats, they [the club] cannot make you modify your vehicle AFAIK. That was my point exactly, even the MoT man cannot force you to fit a seatbelt. I can't RTV my S1 with Staffs and Shrop land rover club as it doesn't have front seat belts. So this sort of thing has come up before. I think a seat belt rule is a good one. It maybe bad in certain circumstaces, That must be another local club thing, there would be no problem bring a S1 with no seatbelts to this clubs days. Hang on, let me get this right. You're into offroading where's there a chance that you could roll, slide, flip etc.....and you're complaining that you need to wear a seatbelt ? Yes, no, maybe. I'm not complaining about wearing a seatbelt. Where one is provided I always wear it, without fail. Given the choice, I'd far rather go laning anyway, I'm not in to get things stuck in the biggest muddiest hole on the site and then waiting for everybody else to get you out. we go out in one or two fairly standard 88". One on a coiler chassis and mine is almost original. Mine is also a daily driver so I'm not allowed to break it, and it's already been on its side once. My argument is that they can't re-write the C&U rules and force you to fit a seatbelt. 2) IMHO you're a prat if you're off-road with no belt anyway. If you bolt a belt in where there's not "supposed" to be one, the MOT tester can only test that it works and is securely mounted, it's an MOT not an SVA. As above, where a belt is provided I always wear it, stupid I'm not. What happens if the belt is removed? I've always been under the impression that if someone fitted seatbelts into a Series 1, which never had them from the factory, they had to remain there until the end of the vehicles life, and I assumed that it was the same in the rear. Is that not the case? I'm still trying to find out if the club is MSA and Limited Liability. I don't believe we are MSA, I know we have insurance to cover the events because the price of it gets moaned about every year. The clubs response has been to delete all of my comments and questions from the forum, and replace it with another copy of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I suppose in the time this conversation has been going on, you could have ordered belts, taken delivery and fitted them. Its peoples lives we talk about, who cares about whether c&u regs are correctly aplied or not? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 I don't believe the club does run MSA events. Non of the 'marshalls' have any formal training for what they 'do'. The scrutineers at least are working MoT testers. Before I worry about belts I need tyres. I refuse to take my 88" on the course in the winter because I know the limitation of my tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 The way I understand "events" for competition is that only the RAC MSA can issue a permit and then the nessary insurance. For those with a long memory going back to the original LRO forum, The Doctord Titles Club, Remember ? The DTC wanted to run a trial at Robin Hoods Bay. They had to get RAC MSA membership to do that. Now AFAIK the only action that the RAC MSA can take is to ban those who enter non RAC MSA events. Like I said to you in my PM. Should any incident happen where there is a huge claim, unless the club is a limited liability club, then ALL members must contribute to that claim in full. Now going back to the original question. Any club running an event under MSA regulations can write what they like into the ASR's for any event they organise. Now the event will have two organisers. The Clerk of the Course and the Secretary of the Meeting. It is on those two peoples heads to see that the event complies. Not the comittee or the club members, they will just have to pick up the bits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Yes, no, maybe. I'm not complaining about wearing a seatbelt. Where one is provided I always wear it, without fail. Given the choice, I'd far rather go laning anyway, I'm not in to get things stuck in the biggest muddiest hole on the site and then waiting for everybody else to get you out. we go out in one or two fairly standard 88". One on a coiler chassis and mine is almost original. Mine is also a daily driver so I'm not allowed to break it, and it's already been on its side once. My argument is that they can't re-write the C&U rules and force you to fit a seatbelt. This was before i started challenging. A quiet greenlaning day out. Coming down a hill, front wheel got channelled into a rut and pulled me off to the side...The she fell over. There were full bodied landrovers with us this day. The terrain hardly looks dangerous if you ask me. Had i had the full roof on with someone in the back - then what ? G (It was the last time i didn't secure the spare wheel down !) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Like I said to you in my PM. Should any incident happen where there is a huge claim, unless the club is a limited liability club, then ALL members must contribute to that claim in full. Now the event will have two organisers. The Clerk of the Course and the Secretary of the Meeting. It is on those two peoples heads to see that the event complies. Not the comittee or the club members, they will just have to pick up the bits Still looking for answer on the limite liability and the MSA registration. And I'm pretty sure we don't have a clerk or a sec...unless the one guy is doing both roles and its just not publicised... I've got a bit worried now that the whole thing stinks.... I'm fully conversant with Limited Liability companies and how they work, my Model engineering society is Ltd, with me recieving a £1 share certificate when I joined, and my liability in the event of a claim is limited to £1. I never had that when I joined this Land Rover club...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 For some reason, I thought it would be harder.... Found the MSA list online on the MSA website...funnily enough! http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/localGroupFinder.asp?category=469 They're not listed in any way that I know the club to use it's name. That concerns me slightly about the organisation of the events.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Then ask the commitee for a look at the insurance doc's for an event , if nothing is forthcoming you know your answer... ..and disclaimers are not worth the ink and paper , organisers of events are liable . cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Been doing a bit more searching. On all the pages of the website and forum, and the last edition of the magazine I can lay my hands on, there is not one mention of the club being limited liability. The club has a PO Box address, the first line of which is simply the club name, no Ltd. The club does have chair and vice, treasurer and secretary but no other elected officers listed in the magazine. It does repeatedly state at all mention of offroading days that all vehicles must be taxed, tested and insured, I have asked the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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