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Upgrade LR Axles or Replace?


Warthog

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GQ-GU (Y61) front with Nissan front radius arms is almost a bolt in. GU has the stronger CV's, is a wider track and has bigger (wider) discs with twin (floater) piston calipers compared to a GQ, but IIRC the stub is the same size.

Check http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/ and click on the Rover forum, a few blokes have done the GQ conversion.

Maggot4x4 did this, including a Nissan rear but had vibration problems with the rear (centred) diff in his Rangie, so went 80 series housings front and rear.

For the front end, GQ is by far the easiest, it is just bolt in, make a steering arm, block a brake pipe, redrill the pinion flange and your done.

For the rear, I would go 80 series, due to the offset of the diff and the fact they are full floaters

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Just priced up Diffs, Arbs Shafts CV's for LR Axles (Ashcroft) :blink: 3K later and i am thinking, is it cost effective? Mog axles, Dana or Toyota.......? An option under 3K, that lets me run 35's allday would br ideal :)

Cheers

One more thing....Anyone used Ashcrofts Cushdrives?....

Hi All,

obviously when looking at upgradings axles it makes sense to look at all options available as it can be quite an expensive process but I feel there are other factors to be taken into account :

1) compare like for like, you cannot compare £ 3K of rebuilt diffs, 4.11 ratio, pegged with new ARB's, ARB air comp, 2 x pair of HD shafts, HD CV's (with 5 year warranty on shafts and CV's ) and flanges with 2 x unknown toyota axles from the scrappy,

2) installation time, this really depends on how you value your time, some have more than others, the above rover axle parts can be fitted in a day, to swap 2 axles with all fabrication mods, locker install etc could take weeks.

3) parts commonality, should something fail or axle casing bend, it's fairly easy to get replacement parts.

4) transferability, should you change vehicle, you can switch uprated parts fairly easily.

5) axle weight, rovers are relatively light.

I am not saying upgrading rover axles is the best solution and all other axles are a waste of time, I am just pointing out that to make an informed decision you need to look at the whole picture.

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One other point is the modular nature of Rover axle upgrades (ie a rear locker this month, shafts next month etc) which means its not an 'all or nothing' approch like an axle swap.

Ermmm? I would see it more like "all or nothing" ?

Moving from stock gearing to 4:11, 10 to 24 spline HD shafts, HD Cv's and putting lockers in would make sense to do it in one? Due to the nature of the items being related and i see that you would be creating more work in the long run? Then if the front is 4:11 then the rear is gonna need doing....

Correct me if im missing a good plan on, uprating?

I can see the benefits of keeping in the Rover family, and im not dismissing the option.

At the moment, i have just been looking at Nissan GQ Front and Toyota 100series Rear. In the land of Oz this seems i good option?

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i have just gone the Ashcroft route CVs, Shafts, drive members, compressor and ARBs, OK diff werent rebuilt and stuck with stock ratios and no pegging. running 35" - a hell of alot less than £3k. try getting together with a few others who are after parts and bulk ordering.

I have only used them once so far to compete and bloody impressed already. i dont have the fab skills or the time/facilities to make other axles fits, plus i still want to be able to retain that fix it in the field ability by keeping as much of the vehicle as close to stock as possible.

If anything in that lot does break i have a good chance of buying/begging/borrowing replacement parts at an events to anable me to carry one.(Ok Tony granted i will need tools before you add that comment!)

Plus i am not aware of any of ashcrofts kit breaking and its got a 5year guarantee.

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Ermmm? I would see it more like "all or nothing" ?

Moving from stock gearing to 4:11, 10 to 24 spline HD shafts, HD Cv's and putting lockers in would make sense to do it in one? Due to the nature of the items being related and i see that you would be creating more work in the long run? Then if the front is 4:11 then the rear is gonna need doing....

Correct me if im missing a good plan on, uprating?

I can see the benefits of keeping in the Rover family, and im not dismissing the option.

At the moment, i have just been looking at Nissan GQ Front and Toyota 100series Rear. In the land of Oz this seems i good option?

yeah you'd need to do both diffs if going to 4.11 at once. i think the suggestion was made with the idea you could upgrade diffs this month. then next month change the shafts when you have more cash, then CVs the month after & so on.

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yeah you'd need to do both diffs if going to 4.11 at once. i think the suggestion was made with the idea you could upgrade diffs this month. then next month change the shafts when you have more cash, then CVs the month after & so on.

Yep, that was the point I was trying to make. Also, why automatically go for 4.11??????? I chose to stay away from aftermarket ratios as I might as well have gone for Toyota or Nissan diffs if I had, plus 3.54s have a naturally stronger design with the weak point IMHO being the relitivly thin crown wheel. This has been overcome by pegging. As I'm auto, most of the time the higher gearing is masked but when I need something lower I have other options: Either pop it into low range and underdrive for control, long winch assists etc or pop it in high ratio and underdrive to give you a ratio of 4.48 (as opposed to 3.32 for standard low range) which can be very useful to get things going for tricky hill climbs.

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I have other options: Either pop it into low range and underdrive for control, long winch assists etc or pop it in high ratio and underdrive to give you a ratio of 4.48 (as opposed to 3.32 for standard low range) which can be very useful to get things going for tricky hill climbs.

"Underdrive.....By that you mean, one of those "Fan Dangled widgets" costing £1500 plus vat? Nice... :)

All im looking for is a set-up that will work and be cost effective? Underdrive and Pegged diffs? But that still leaves Half shafts and Cv's to sort?

At present...£1500 would get me a Nissan Front (Complete truck) and £3000 for Toyota rear (Complete truck) Breaking both truck would reward me with some return, 4.2 and 3.0ltr engines should see to that?

I know, issues such as Fab work, time and spares availabilty are going to raise there head. But, i guess it would be worth a go....Looking at the Australian comps and OBC they seem a good choice?

Saying that........Got to find the £££ before any further actions?

Cheers for any info, any opinions can shed light on the subject.... :)

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Hi All,

1) compare like for like, you cannot compare £ 3K of rebuilt diffs, 4.11 ratio, pegged with new ARB's, ARB air comp, 2 x pair of HD shafts, HD CV's (with 5 year warranty on shafts and CV's ) and flanges with 2 x unknown toyota axles from the scrappy,

But the amount you will save will give you enough to strip and check the Toyota or nissan alxe. And they are stronger so should noit be aproblem anyway

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GQ-GU (Y61) front with Nissan front radius arms is almost a bolt in. GU has the stronger CV's, is a wider track and has bigger (wider) discs with twin (floater) piston calipers compared to a GQ, but IIRC the stub is the same size.

Check http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/ and click on the Rover forum, a few blokes have done the GQ conversion.

Maggot4x4 did this, including a Nissan rear but had vibration problems with the rear (centred) diff in his Rangie, so went 80 series housings front and rear.

Here is Maggots Rangie when we went playing the other day. Notice the six studs

DSC_0001.jpg

PICT0016.jpg

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One other point is the modular nature of Rover axle upgrades (ie a rear locker this month, shafts next month etc) which means its not an 'all or nothing' approch like an axle swap.

But Will it will cost the same as replacing your shafts anyway so that does not matter

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Hi All,

obviously when looking at upgradings axles it makes sense to look at all options available as it can be quite an expensive process but I feel there are other factors to be taken into account :

1) compare like for like, you cannot compare £ 3K of rebuilt diffs, 4.11 ratio, pegged with new ARB's, ARB air comp, 2 x pair of HD shafts, HD CV's (with 5 year warranty on shafts and CV's ) and flanges with 2 x unknown toyota axles from the scrappy,

2) installation time, this really depends on how you value your time, some have more than others, the above rover axle parts can be fitted in a day, to swap 2 axles with all fabrication mods, locker install etc could take weeks.

3) parts commonality, should something fail or axle casing bend, it's fairly easy to get replacement parts.

4) transferability, should you change vehicle, you can switch uprated parts fairly easily.

5) axle weight, rovers are relatively light.

Hi ok lets take some of your points on board

Intallation time. Same length of time give or take to fit Nissan alxes as it is to change the complete guts of a rover alxe. and i would love to watse a could of hours to save a couple of grand

Parts mmmmmm let me think , all halfords open on a sunday do ARB lockers , 4.1 ring and pinions , uprated Cv's , and half shafts for a Landy.I think not :lol: With our trucks we are beyond the point of getting spare parts from a local garage or halfords. You have to carry spare sparts anyway. But won't need so many with a Nissan or Toyota

As for weight i would rather have a alxe which is strong and fit and forget. (most of the nissans and toyotas in the Outback Challenge are running standard alxes and have not touched them for 3 outback events and other winch events thought the year). Its not like they are a ton heaver after all

But with the greatest respect, this option will not go down with Ascrofts or Devon, as they make a far bit out of shafts, CV's, 4.1 Diffs. Even more when we keep breaking them. So the tought of everyone putting a set of 500 pound nissan alxes on our trucks and not needing any off these parts anymore is not a very happy one for them

Best thing is go and have a look at a Nissan Diff and CV and Half shaft. Then come back and say a Landy uprated one is better.

The crown wheel on a Nissan is 35mm thick, and the shafts are the thickness of you wrist, The Cv's are 25% bigger than Land Rover ones. Don't forget the Nissan and Toyotas weigh near to 3 ton, over 3 ton comp ready

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If i were to look for Toyo axle's, what would i be looking for? Are there rear axles disc braked? What type of locker have they got, or am i looking at installing ARB's on top of Axle costs? Would i be able to run upto 36's without re-gearing as standard?

Fab isnt a problem to a degree, but im no guru...

I guess the fab work would intail Radius arm mounts, shock location mounts....Steering adjustments??

Loadsa questions....

If i were to go Mogs, what budget realistically would i be looking at...with me doing the fab work?

Cheers

Nissan and toyotas come with a range of ring and pinions Most common is 4.1

They are disc on the front

You cut of the mounts of a rover alxe and weld them on a nissan front. Nissan front because the diff is in the right place and is alot easyer to fit than the toyota.

There is a big agruement here weither to go Nissan rear or toyota rear. After alot of chating i will be going nissan rear. Again easy to do than the Toyota

Rear diff is 5degree of the rover one so put a double uj prop on an fixes that problem

The front nissan alxe has one brake pipe same as the defenders, but have to cap one of on the rangie and disco as they have two

For the Nissan front, anything from '89 to present. For the Toyota rear, Late 1990 to Early 1998, Prefer after 1994 as they had better brakes.

The Toyota will be 4.1, the Nissan could be 3.9, 4.11, 4.3 or 4.625 depending on the engine & gearbox config but the vendor should be able to tell you. 3.9 & 4.11 are by far the most common.

Some come with Lockers but not alot. So you have to put in ARB lockers , but you would have to do that with Landy alxes anyway. And ARB lockers are the same price for landy , toyota and Nissan. But the saving bit is you don't need uprated half shafts, Cv's and 4.1 ring and pionions. Puting in the ARB locker also makes them a 4 pin diff which is the only week part in a Nissna and toyota diff.

As i said on another forum, We in the land rover circle are far too blinkered , and some times you have to look out of the box. It is an easy swap to do after all where did the Japs nick the design for the running gear of their trucks from . THE RANGE ROVER

People say the landy ones are ok but Go to any Landy forum and you see thread after thread about shafts, CV's and new ring and piniuons.want stronger ones or how do i make it even more stronger (and this is running 35" simex. News Flah tyres are getting bigger so you need an axles than can take more than 35"). The Aussies have come up with the solution . But the amount of people who so blinkered and therefore blind to the fact that a nissan alxes is stronger than a Maxi Drive with 4.1 ring and pinions and uprated CV's. But cost no where near the price

Here is some pics for you of trucks with Nissan and toyota axles Count the wheel studs

XWC0205_3701.jpg

XWC0205_3710.jpg

This is a truck from the Tuff Trucks challenge. Anyone who has seen the vid of this knows they are real nutters

They run big big tyres

normal_TT06_07024.jpg

Here a better pic of the axles :lol:

normal_TT06_07148.jpg

Ok so you have to buy new rims well here you go 20 pounds at the moment for a set of 4

Rims

You need the alxes then take your pick

(figures in pounds)

100

102

103

850 still got MOT and tax

125

So as you can see you can pick up a set of axles for less than a set of 4.1 ring and pinions. Or a set of strengthened half shafts for one Landy Axle.

Fianl word.

Speak to Ed at Frog Island He has been barking on about toyota and Nissans for years. Not their engines or trucks but the strehgt of the axles. He says they always make a better challenge truck in the Uk for this reason only

My moto for challenge events is a reworded (for PC) sean conary Line.

Don't bring a knife to a gun party :lol:

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Ali, true, you can't get parts from Halfrauds but if you break something and spread the word you're after a diff, shaft, CV you'll often find someone has one or knows someone localish who does. I'm not disputing the quality of the axles as they are good, but numbers don't help over here. What happens if you have a wheel bearing seize at an event or a diff pinion seal goes? These sort of things are easy to find for a LR over here but would be nearly impossible for Jap stuff as its so much rarer. In Aus its the opposite, though.

As far as strength goes, IIRC Ashcrofts have had no failiers on CV and offer a 5 year garentee. Uprated shafts, yeah, you can break them but then you're REALLY trying :D If I break a pegged diff then trying to make LR parts won't have worked for me and I'm going for Toyota centres.

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Ali, true, you can't get parts from Halfrauds but if you break something and spread the word you're after a diff, shaft, CV you'll often find someone has one or knows someone localish who does. I'm not disputing the quality of the axles as they are good, but numbers don't help over here. What happens if you have a wheel bearing seize at an event or a diff pinion seal goes? These sort of things are easy to find for a LR over here but would be nearly impossible for Jap stuff as its so much rarer. In Aus its the opposite, though.

As far as strength goes, IIRC Ashcrofts have had no failiers on CV and offer a 5 year garentee. Uprated shafts, yeah, you can break them but then you're REALLY trying :D If I break a pegged diff then trying to make LR parts won't have worked for me and I'm going for Toyota centres.

sorry will don't think that is a good arguement. Even with my old alxes on my 90 i still used to carry spares. If you are competing your nuts if you don't have spare UJ's, wheel bearing's stub alxes

If you blow an arb diff your going home no matter what truck your running :lol:

But what happens when 35" are small tyres.

And how much are the ashcroft CV's then

BTW parts are not easy to find here, when events are 300 miles from the nearest petrol station never mind garage :lol:

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But Ali you didn't have Ashcrofts new CV's

to date none have broken.

37"+ tyres won't fit a Defender as the outrigger is in the way.

blowing a diff doesn't mean a trip home as you can pull the diff or shafts, as we have done and still finished then driven home.

getting another diff is easy and lots are readily available.

Ashcroft CVs are £425+vat IIRC

I'd like to see these Nissan shafts the size of my wrist though :)

in fact Bathtub on a pr of L/R 101s seems the way to go rather than add jap gear.

plus any insurance issues are negated by keeping Rover gear.

and I still carry spare CV's stub axles but not shafts toa date so far so good.

plus the Aussie outback etc type events are hard to compare with winch challenges etc as seen over here.

no fast driving over boulders etc

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no fast driving over boulders etc

You should have been at at AWDC challenge at 7S - timed trials section up and down the big steps.

I must admit I am seriously considering the jap axle route, I had given it some thought in the past, but reading this has renewed my interest and maybe it isn't as difficult as I first thought. Being in the position I am with essentially stock rover axles with no money invested in them yet I have a clean sheet to start from. I'm not convinced by portals, especially as I want to keep my truck more versatile at the moment. Be interesting to see how it works out for any one going the jap axle route as i won't be doing anthing till next winter as I have this winters project (money pit) already sitting on the drive.

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But Ali you didn't have Ashcrofts new CV's

to date none have broken.

37"+ tyres won't fit a Defender as the outrigger is in the way.

blowing a diff doesn't mean a trip home as you can pull the diff or shafts, as we have done and still finished then driven home.

getting another diff is easy and lots are readily available.

Ashcroft CVs are £425+vat IIRC

I'd like to see these Nissan shafts the size of my wrist though :)

in fact Bathtub on a pr of L/R 101s seems the way to go rather than add jap gear.

plus any insurance issues are negated by keeping Rover gear.

and I still carry spare CV's stub axles but not shafts toa date so far so good.

plus the Aussie outback etc type events are hard to compare with winch challenges etc as seen over here.

no fast driving over boulders etc

come on Tony dont talk rubish :) you not going to find a 4.1 diff lying around even with out a locker. are you

The cost of ashcroft CV's it cheaper to change the alxes.

BTW Tony i have never broken a CV anyway on any of my trucks. And i don't think you can say i don't go hard

All i am saying is that if you are starting a fresh then it is better and a hell of alot cheaper to go nissan axles . Than spend a fortune on shafts, cv's and ring and pinions

Yeah bathtub is running 101 alxes but they are not cheap either and 101 parts are getting rarer and rarer by the day

Anyway who was talking about defender 100 inch wheel base is the way to go anyway :)

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Will, no offence but your arguement doesnt make any sense to me,

maintenance ? spares box ? how many wheel bearings have you done? if a pinion seal starts to leak and you dont have a spare - bodge it and change the oil at the end of stage - surely the same as any other vehicle?

maintenance time for me, so Ive just done a front diff rebuild, changed the pinion seals, re-bearing'd the kinpins, and serviced my axles and its cost me under £100, all parts bought within 15 miles of home, available within 24 hours (if not on the shelf) and they are Volvo axles.

I dont have to take axle spares (consumables?) with me - they dont break and as a rule they have the living bejesus smacked out of them.. I didn't see General Ahdid having probs with the Japanese technicals in Mogadishu? not seen a lot of feedback to suggest that the Taliban are having an issue with spares for wheel bearings or dodgy pinion seals? I strongly suspect the dealer network in rural Somalia, Pakistan and Afganistan is a little less developed than in the UK but thats purely conjecture.

Defending Rover axles (ok in your case defending rover axle casings) when stronger and cheaper solutions are easy enough to source makes no sense at all. I have to do a non-portal truck soon and even after blagging it still works out as being a multiple cost to that of building a decent Jap or US axle, no emotion involved, I need strong, I have to build to a budget - theres no contest..

If you are planning on heading abroad then dont hang onto the idea that you'll be able to survive off other peoples charity for spares or popping to a dealers, you try looking for Landy parts at an event a little further afield and you would get laughed at - seriously. Last year I had to get parts flown in from England as all the offical Landrover dealerships in a 300mile radius said the fastest they can get spares is 2 weeks :ph34r:

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I dont have to take axle spares (consumables?) with me - they dont break and as a rule they have the living bejesus smacked out of them.. I didn't see General Ahdid having probs with the Japanese technicals in Mogadishu? not seen a lot of feedback to suggest that the Taliban are having an issue with spares for wheel bearings or dodgy pinion seals? I strongly suspect the dealer network in rural Somalia, Pakistan and Afganistan is a little less developed than in the UK but thats purely conjecture.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

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come on Tony dont talk rubish :) you not going to find a 4.1 diff lying around even with out a locker. are you

The cost of ashcroft CV's it cheaper to change the alxes.

BTW Tony i have never broken a CV anyway on any of my trucks. And i don't think you can say i don't go hard

All i am saying is that if you are starting a fresh then it is better and a hell of alot cheaper to go nissan axles . Than spend a fortune on shafts, cv's and ring and pinions

Yeah bathtub is running 101 alxes but they are not cheap either and 101 parts are getting rarer and rarer by the day

Anyway who was talking about defender 100 inch wheel base is the way to go anyway :)

I'm not talking rubbish just persevering listening to you bleating on and on about Toyo/Nissan

the majority of the people here don't want Nissan or Toyo gear the want to upgrade thier L/Rs.

I wouldn't look for a 4.11 diff as I have 3.54s common as muck cheap and easy to replace.

rather than looking on ebay to try and get a spare..

I and everyone hears what your saying about cheap Nissan/Toyota part but the majority still want L/R gear.

plus you'd be suprised what mark up ther is on some of the parts discussed above.

lastly the majority do not have the skills of Andy(Moglite) and Jez and Dirty diesel to be able to fabricate with such skill I know I sure as hell don't but I can strip and rebuild a L/R axle in my garden/a muddy field

all day long.

Tony

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I'm not talking rubbish just persevering listening to you bleating on and on about Toyo/Nissan

the majority of the people here don't want Nissan or Toyo gear the want to upgrade thier L/Rs.

I wouldn't look for a 4.11 diff as I have 3.54s common as muck cheap and easy to replace.

rather than looking on ebay to try and get a spare..

I and everyone hears what your saying about cheap Nissan/Toyota part but the majority still want L/R gear.

plus you'd be suprised what mark up ther is on some of the parts discussed above.

lastly the majority do not have the skills of Andy(Moglite) and Jez and Dirty diesel to be able to fabricate with such skill I know I sure as hell don't but I can strip and rebuild a L/R axle in my garden/a muddy field

all day long.

Tony

what are you on about mark up. You still have the pay the mark up and price quoted.

Tony this is not aimed at you. If you don't like the topic don't read it

The thread was started asking about Nissan and Toyota and Mog axles . So this is what it is about. So don't moan about it being what was asked.

And not all of us can throw money at our truck

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