Upgrade LR Axles or Replace?

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

The thing is Australia is about 3-5 years ahead of the Uk in off roading terms.

Ali …………… that’s more carp than I spout ………..

Its like comparing bananas with kiwifruit ………… yeah they are both fruit but that about as far as it goes,

Different Terrain, very different driving style, the majority vehicle is not LR, you quoted home turf suppliers, very different economic climate, ……….. I could go on………. it is just not comparable…………… which is why I maintain my stance that the outback will not be won by a British team for many years to come.

Also, to be fair, most of the Oz mechanical engineers that I have met are first class at what they do ( The V8 racing scene is a prime example) ………… often with high levels of ingenuity and the finish is often outstanding…………. but also done for very different reasons to what we have over here.

You really need to compare bananas with plantains……………………..

At the end of the day…………..’ what is best’ is personal choice on the part of the user……… and the answer may be many reasons removed from durability or ultimate strength………………..

Ian

[white90]

'kinell - finally the admission from a TDi owner that diesels are slower than petrols quick, add this to the tech archive for prosperity!

no admission as the Aussie one I saw in videos are big Nissan/toyota diesels

MMMMMMMMM diesel

[reads90]

no admission as the Aussie one I saw in videos are big Nissan/toyota diesels

MMMMMMMMM diesel

mmm big diesel tunned within inches of there lives

mind you not many diesels in the 2006 outback vid

[simonr]

Good thread this.

I've just bought a pair of 1993 HiLux axles with difflocks for a couple of hundred quid. Not intending to use on the 90 - hopefully for something less fat!

Although it has drums on the back - how hard can it be to come up with a disk conversion?

Si

[dollythelw]

where theres a will Si

[will_warne]

Im intreaged Will, Im glad you are going to have a go but theres a couple of things

"more robust drivetrain" do you actually know what the frogs drivetrain is? and where its weakspots are? based on its failures in competition (Ladoga, Vipsky etc) I'd say its pretty well sorted as it is (everything of course is game for improvement though)

The guy that designed and built it is (to me) possibly the most talented and imaginitive gits nice guys of our time. He has a whole stable of diverse and seriously competitive cars - he builds predominantly for the night wolves (and of course anyone else with a massive bank balance). Got to admit St Issacs next year is something I look forward to enormously just to see what he has come up with next but if theres a home grown version then good luck

one point though - if you build it longer than the frog you will have missed the whole point of the design surely

Jez, the vehicle I'm thinking of won't so much be a version of the Frog more a vehicle inspired by some of the ideas of it and then changed in a few areas to, hopefully, make something that'll work well as an all rounder.

I think the guy who came up with the design is HUGELY talented. Very, very out of the box thinking. From what you've said and the photos I've seen the vehicle is chain driven and doesn't like road running (and I'd guess from the wheelbase) pretty interesting to drive at speed! I don't like chain drives; I've never found chain easy or reliable to work with. Hydrodrive is an idea that's been consided but its not without some very major problems to overcome. My solution; shaft drive. I've got some ideas floating arround and I've done a few sketches. My issues right now is trying to work out if everything can be packaged nicely without too much weight and whether I can get a gearing setup that'd work. I'm really looking to be able to have a top speed of 70 odd mph while keeping the drivetrain as simple as possible!

The wheelbase is length is purely for stability at speed and on climbs. Yep, I'll loose some of the advantages of a short wheelbase but its all about compromise.

Thanks for the wish of luck with this, I think I will need a lot of it!

[jules]

Ali you are a legend in your own mind that's for sure.

funny I know of someone similar to you

BFG M/T in 35 best tyres ever er on no they're not Simex are

but the 200TDI is better than a 300 or is it a TD5

cheap CV's are fine-no GKN are the ones to have then again is it Ashcroft but you have to agree GKN shafts are the greatest expcept Maxi drive may be or is it the latest Ashcroft ones.

all comments/statements made by the same person....

I have no chip on my shoulders have you checked yours lately?

I also now what I'm capable of soing and not doing.

tell me if you had moved to Korea would a ssanyong be the way to enlightenment these days

back on to the thread.

Maggot4x4 your front axle swap looks a very nice job

the rear prop angle , does that cause any issues or is there another rear axle that could replace a L/R one?

Not wanting to stir and this is not a dig at anyone..

Ali is my brother and we have very similar views on things

BFG MT & AT is the best all round tyre for ability, road manners and quality

When we were competing we found 35 simex were the only tyre up to it for UK stuff but their now being superseded. We didn't run any bigger because at the time only one truck was and we were beating that comfortably but times are changing.

The 200 tdi is a simpler engine than the 300tdi or the Td5 for competition use for fix ability and reliability.

We never get overly involved in the Ashcroft argument and there kit has come out after we stopped competing, It was the cost we had issues with MD. we very rarely broke them our standard CV’s. Main because my sponsors are a very big customer of Ashcroft’s as well.

The overload protectors Ali had were set wrong so did not work until Tonk and Ali had a little play and re-torque set them after which they worked properly no modification accessory is perfect but these worked very well. I bought mine a good seven years ago and mine had never been used which was the reason Ali knew about them and how they should perform.

Stock CV's are GKN anyway.......I run Kam R&P and shafts due to cost of MD but will be upgrading when the new truck is built.

The Jap Axles I have priced up in the UK I can get two factory locked axles less than £400 each complete with the correct R&P for my truck. But I will build the truck first and fit stronger axles if needed later.

I would be happy to put money on there being far more old Toyota’s and Nissans in scrap yards than 101’s with axles still for sale.

I have been called Lazy by many on this forum because I can’t weld and feel my time is better spent elsewhere and getting others to do the fabrication for me. Ali is the same

The cost of having a few brackets welded to an axle is minimal compared with the possible savings if you chose to go down that road.

All comments made by the same person but in what context.

Each engine is good it its own field eg the V8’s are far more powerful and better for hill climbs and speed but for every day use there MPG is carp making them not practical and the opposite can be said for the diesels as to superb MPG but carp for hill climbs will a very small power band but fine for playing and laning.

I run a td5 disco as my every day car but wouldn’t compete with one race or challenge from my own findings regardless of what others have found.

When set up right there superb but not without issues

Even though in the 2004 British championship my 1.8 freelander completely toileted a td5 90 on the first round and it took simmonite some time between rounds to get the 2.5 td5 to be even remotely competitive when they did it was evil and their drivers massive experience and ability easily beat my tiny little within reg’s 1.8 freelander. But then again I didn’t need and new turbo every 8 laps and spend most of my pit time repairing gearbox and engine mounts..

Don’t get me wrong a 1.8 could even move a 90 but you get the idea.

All the different types of competing need different ideas and different outlooks on things

e.g

The racing trucks suspensions are by far superior to that of a challenge trucks.(not that the challenge boys will admit it)

A race truck to be competitive needs to have fox or vary damp minimum on each corner which is around the £400 per corner but that’s only and starting point for a racer where as challenge trucks don’t need that level of strength or quality

In the same way as a challenge truck is by far superior to that of a green lane’s truck.

The forum covers so many different aspects of off roading and for each person there is a different answer depending on what there given use and ideas are.

I am probably wasting my time sorry if I have wasted yours

[Astro_Al]

Will - you need to look at US style pro-trucks / baja stuff, they use these arms all over the place (well, normally between an axle and the chassis... ). All the tech/research/trial & error has been bashed out for you.

If chains scare you, run a diff crownwheel at the wheel end and an extra long pinion-geared shaft down the 'leg'. Job done. Make sure you look into the issues of stability/suspension performance with arms that swing up/forwards significantly on front axles. Don't ask me, I'm only vaguely aware there are issues.

I think it's an interesting option and have thought about it a bit recently (though won't ever have time to build it). Very do-able. So do it!

This thread has become a slagging match like most other 'my axle is better than your axle' threads. People get hold of an idea and become convinced it's the one and only 'ultimate' solution. [until the next one comes along ] Of course this never happens to me!

Sooner or later you'll all realise you're wrong and you need some Mogs...

Mr Warthog - for 3k you can have a lot of axle. Running '35s all day long' is a joke for that kind of money. your options are plentiful - Danas (60s, hell even 44s for those tyres/engine, bigger...? 70s...?); Ford 9 inch - you could build up some nice axles with custom housings - check out spidertrax's custom 9 housings for a nice basis. Obviously Mogs, Volvos, even Pinz / simcas if you're feeling brave, 14 bolt, build a set of salisburys, Nissan, Toy, Toy conversion for your Rovers (check out my thread in the tech archive).

In terms of economy, you're far better changing axles for something that copes easily that squezzing what you have to the limit of their performance for the same money.

You need (probably) to do some digging around on other fora - axle tech is a bit 'stayed' in UK landy fora.

Far from the comment above that Jez / Andy etc are 'ahead of the times', they are simply up with what's going on, and IMHO all this 'stretching a rover axle to run 35s' is a waste of time and money, and behind the times.

Don't worry too much about the fabrication - I'm sure if you have enough enthusiasm you'll see help coming your way.

Just my perspective, hope it helps, Al.

[Maggot4x4]

Maggot4x4 your front axle swap looks a very nice job

the rear prop angle , does that cause any issues or is there another rear axle that could replace a L/R one?

Yeah, the GQ rear did cause probs, thats why it now has 80 series cruiser. No more probs. I haven't posted pics of the cruiser diff in the car yet as I have to take them first

[Maggot4x4]

no admission as the Aussie one I saw in videos are big Nissan/toyota diesels

MMMMMMMMM diesel

Most of the comp diesels over here make between 250 - 350 RWHP. Often twin turbo and gas injected

The rangi of mine in the pics is my go on holidays truck, take it to Fraser Island (10 Minutes away, I can see it from my Balcony ) Cape York etc.

I also have a 350 Chev powered '83 Rangie that is slowly being but for comp work.

[jules]

Most of the comp diesels over here make between 250 - 350 RWHP. Often twin turbo and gas injected

The rangi of mine in the pics is my go on holidays truck, take it to Fraser Island (10 Minutes away, I can see it from my Balcony ) Cape York etc.

I also have a 350 Chev powered '83 Rangie that is slowly being but for comp work.

And the Aus's arn't ahead of us.....

[dollythelw]

sorry wandering off topic - Im gonna start another thread

[will_warne]

Will - you need to look at US style pro-trucks / baja stuff, they use these arms all over the place (well, normally between an axle and the chassis... ). All the tech/research/trial & error has been bashed out for you.

If chains scare you, run a diff crownwheel at the wheel end and an extra long pinion-geared shaft down the 'leg'. Job done. Make sure you look into the issues of stability/suspension performance with arms that swing up/forwards significantly on front axles. Don't ask me, I'm only vaguely aware there are issues.

I think it's an interesting option and have thought about it a bit recently (though won't ever have time to build it). Very do-able. So do it!

Al, yeah, I know, there are a LOT of issues. You're idea with the diffs is pretty much the line I was thinking of. I'd just have solid centres made up, have some bling shafts made, chop an axle arround a bit and you'd have a side. You don't even need a long pinion as a propshaft and with a double carden at the inboard end should sort things.

As Jez said in the bunfight thread, shockloads will be interesting with short shafts. I have thought about using rover diffs at each corner as they should, if built propperly, be strong enough, however I'd never get a shaft that's up to the job into the modded rover case / swivel. As I said, gearing will be an issue as you're going to have to run through at least 3 diffs meaning big reduction. I'm going to have to do some major reseach into ratios on differant gearboxes and diffs to come up with something that'd work.

Handling with the axle configuration scared me a little until I sat down and thought about it. However, look at how a Rover front axle is located and that handles OK. The big problem will be roll into corners as the inside wheelbase will get longer and that won't be fun However, I plan to run the arms to the centre of the vehicle so the will be very long which should lessen the problems.

As far as power supply goes, I think this one's going to be petrol powered just to give it the rev range. I'm thinking either Ford derived V6 with S/C, possibly a Jag 4.2 (again supercharged) or maybe an LS1 or 6. Not sure.

[SOA 93]

Bloody hell boys you've been busy today, nobody got any work to do?

Here's some more comparison pics of CV's, a 101, Rover (weak version I think) and a shiny 300m Toyota birfield.

[white90]

Ashcroft cage/bell

Ashcroft vs Standard AEU2552

[callum]

Here's some more comparison pics of CV's, a 101, Rover (weak version I think) and a shiny 300m Toyota birfield.

hahahah, the 101 cv is comedy big.

i didn't realise when people said they were huge that the wer literally huge

would be cool to see the with shafts in is the 101 1.5"?

i remember someone comparing a rangie and 80 series landcruiser on pirate once with pics comparing some of the bits and internals. was pretty interesting, alas since search died, stuff has become a bit difficult to find.

be interesting to see the jap ones beside over too. i think they must be reasonably similar in size if longfields are primarily fitted of course to 'yotas, but also fitted to rover axles and gq axles.

glad to see some proper tech instead of all this 'smack talkin'

[Warthog]

Those 101 CV's are of interest! Now i like the look of them

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmmmm

Can we have a reality check please ?

It does seems that peoplke talk a load a **** at times.

The vast majority of off roaders in the UK have std-ish drive trains and do ok, you fit a locker or 2 and do better, you then maybe go and fit ashcroft shafts and even better still etc etc.

Then you get the "I know everything about everything merchants". the bar stool experts, who may have read info, from book website or someone very knowledgeable, this is then repeated and repeated until it is the "Must have" kit.

The same bar stool experts probably have never even had a axle aprt, let alone modify or fabricate, but they know "it all".

For the majority of UK users a LR axle, and in good condition (how many break cos they are in **** condition ?) will do mnay, a well built upgraed axle is really good, and yes it will break but easy fix, and limited fab work as its std fit but better quklaity.

Those who go for more, and I mean those who ACTUALLY do it and not spout hearsay and dreamers, do so for their own reasons, and top marks for them thinking of the routes, often they will find a prob down the track and have to compromise or go further, but they are, in the main the very few, and all respect to them who do it and not just talk as though they know what they are spouting on about....

A decently sorted LR axle will do most people on this forum, a few who have a loose bolt or 6 or have the desire to try other options should IMHO be encoraged and they will continue to do odd things, some work and some don't, but lets be honest here, and put these innovative individuals in a different league to dreamers and hearsay repeater experts,

There a pros and cons for both routes, but there is nothing like the individual who has done it for real vs the "If I was to do it I would do it this way" experts

2p over and out

Nige

[reads90]

I have been called Lazy by many on this forum because I can’t weld and feel my time is better spent elsewhere and getting others to do the fabrication for me. Ali is the same

Yeah i think Moglite and tonk will agree i am dangerous enough with spanners, never mind a welder.

I am a carpet fitter / floor layer by trade (yeah i will lay anything ) So i tend to leave people to do what they are good at . Hence i find someone to do the welding for me. This is why i have somone building a truck for me here. Could do it myslef but i have to weigh up time, buying stuff (like welder for one), and then the finished quality of the job. In my mind it is cheaper to get some else to do it.

Lot of my past stuff was done on the barter system. Everone needs a carpet of floor layed some where in their house

[reads90]

OK more info to stir the pot (thanks to Glen, Discoute)

Hey Ali

Some info on Nissan Diff conversions.

Mate as you know I am a dedicated Rover man, However I do look at vehicles with engineering in mind, Hence I work only on rovers. I see no sound engineering in Other brand of 4wd as a platform for general use, racing or comps such as winch challenge. The rover has the best chassis and suspension to start any offroad vehicle. the only problem area is the front diff.

The conditions found in Australia and the UK are very different and the competition style is much different. the Australian comps are more timed events with speed a major factor, the need for strong drivline componants are the primary need for diff replacement on rover based comp trucks.

Toyota diffs from 80 and 100 series cruisers and Hilux are while stronger in design "hypoid" than a rover diff of the same basic size in crown wheel, around 8". the use of toyota diffs in competition is not a favoured thing due to the lack of strenght, there are some purests that will only use toyota in a toyota but these trucks fail in the diffs many times more than a Nissan. There is a move toward the use of Nissan diffs in these vehicles.

The Nissan diffs are as rule good in quality and design , the crown wheel is over 10" and Nissans have one of the best LSD units onthe market. the LSD adjusted up is near as good as a locked diff.

To fit these diffs to a rover is not a huge engineering job infact the front diffs fits like a glove with little modification. A common quote is the japs have been trying to copy rover for years and still can't get it rite is close to true. the Nissan lower front arms are with 10mm in lenght and the fit up to the chassis mounts is with in 5mm. A standard nissan GQdiff will slide into a rangie chassis mount and the same bushings can be used. The modificatioin for spring saddles is that of measurement and placement for bump stop height, for correct geometry the nissan spring saddles must be moved outwards and be 40mm higher than standard. This in turn will give the rangie a castor angle of around 2.5 degree with 50mm raised springs. You end up with a vehicle that stands some 90 - 100mm taller than standard, with the same bump stop travel, however this can be adjusted to suit full comp specs. the use of 16 x 8 rims with pos 32 offset with give a track of over 200mm extra. the vehicle with be stable with this set up and drive as a rover should. the use of standard shock towers and shocks at 600mm will give the vehicle more than standard travell. there is nothing more than an exhust manipulation for the front shaft to fit apart from a change in lenght and redrilling of the pinion flange. the use of offset caster bushes is not recomended as this will induce vibration.

The rear diff conversion is a lttle more work with all but 4 original nissan brackets removed. fabrication of the new brackets is required as is carefull placement to retain geometry for the A frame and lower arms. Once again the spring saddles must be set up to remain within the front ride height. the use of a single double cardon joint or both ends double cradon is used to prevent vibration problems.

A little more info.

The standard nissan GQ wagon weights in at front 1340kg with the inclusion of winch and bar and all other parts normally fitted so in theory the vehicle front axle weight ends up over 1.5 tonne, a well set up rangie will weight much less the point being if these diffs can cope with 1.5 tonne in competition than they must be considered as a replacement in a rover.

With many years of competition I have only ever seen 3 nissan rear axles break, on all 3 they were a result of over 4 years of hard comp work and failed due to fatique.

As you know my Hybrid runs up at around 500hp and the Nissan diffs handle this without a problem, This truck has enough power to lift the front wheels in high range in offroad conditions.

Hope this helps

glen

__________________

[jules]

As you know my Hybrid runs up at around 500hp and the Nissan diffs handle this without a problem, This truck has enough power to lift the front wheels in high range in offroad conditions.

Hope this helps

glen

__________________

Feck

I want his engine

[reads90]

Feck

I want his engine

That Windsor lump i was telling you about. Its a seris 3 with the 2 wheel drive choice still. This thing can pull a wheelie from the lights. seriuosly, front wheels in the air, mad just mad

Told you put Ben and Pete in the same person and you have glen (to expalin to others aprt from my brother Jules, Ben is a chap in winchester who has a landy garage but also has a degree in mechanical engering. Works out ratios and stuff in his head, also can tell you what somthing is (off the top of his head) by you just giving him the part number. And pete is a chap in Poole who make anything out of anything. Not scared of cuting stuff of anything, and great with a welder)

BTW this is the bloke that is going to make a truck for me

Have a look here

Brothers off road

Simon Buck knows this truck well after he took the pi** out of it (being that it is a seres 3) and then it Mildly miffed all over his Range Rover in the Outbak challenge

[white90]

very interesting stuff there

with food for thought!

still 500hp vs 120 from a TDI and the terrain the vehicle will be used in.

Any pictures Ali?

[reads90]

very interesting stuff there

with food for thought!

still 500hp vs 120 from a TDI and the terrain the vehicle will be used in.

Any pictures Ali?

Yeah he is doing them for me now says should be done by 8.30 tonight (umm its 7.22 pm here at the moment) so about an hour

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

That Windsor lump i was telling you about. Its a seris 3 with the 2 wheel drive choice still. This thing can pull a wheelie from the lights. seriuosly, front wheels in the air, mad just mad

Ali,

I haven’t had chance to read all the background info yet……………….. I assume that is a small block 351W 5.8L Windsor …….. the Ford Yank V8 as opposed to the V6 POS that was referred to as a Windsor (but was actually a cologne) in the UK………..

The Ford US Windsor engine plant has turned out some good kit over the years.

Ian