Scooby Jim Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Will a Salisbury rear axle, be a straight swap for a `88 rear axle?? If it will, is it a straight direct swap.Or is it a PITA??Would I need the front axle too?? Reason being I'm off to liberate the front drum setup from a 109 on the weekend, and if it has a Salisbury then I may see how much he wants for it if it will go on straight away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Didn't 109" models have the springs outboard of the chassis rails? So the spring seats etc. will be in the wrong place to fit under an 88"? Nothing that couldn't be fixed with a welder, but not exactly a straight swap either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Didn't 109" models have the springs outboard of the chassis rails? So the spring seats etc. will be in the wrong place to fit under an 88"?Nothing that couldn't be fixed with a welder, but not exactly a straight swap either. Hmmm I know a cracking welder, or if he's busy I can have a go lol. Surely as long as things are measured correctly then it shouldn't be too hard, measuring and measuring and measuring, and then checking the measuring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Move the spring pads to suit the 88, then shorten the rear prop, I think the nose on the Sailsbury is longer than a rover. My 109 is away at the moment so I can't measure it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 As EJP says move the spring mounts inboard to match the 88" axle and a shorter rear prop . You can shave the bottom of the diff housing to improve your ground clearance if you want to , there are a few threads on here about it cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 All of the above is correct. The spring saddles will need to be moved inboard. I think you will be able to use the 88" spring plates to re-use the dampers in their original fashion, but 109 axles have brackets for the dampers to be fitted directly above the spring, mounted on an incline, with the bottom of the damper having a stud rather than an eye. The diff nose is considerably longer on a Salisbury axle than a Rover axle, so the rear prop will indeed have to be shortened. If you have parabolics or any kind of lift, this may cause UJ issues, but don't rotate the diff pinion axis up to point at the transfer box; keep it parallel to the gear box axis or you'll get a lot of vibration and damage the prop, half shafts, diff and transfer box. There is no need to do anything with the front axle itself, but you might have brake balance issues on a pre-1980 88" because the 109 rear brakes are 11". The simplest fix is to remove the 109 brakes, complete with back plate, and fit the brakes from your old rear axle to it. They should be a straight swap. The speedo calibration will not be altered by the axle swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Cheers guys.Well its worth me getting the rear axle and having it in my garage and slowly doing the adaptations needed, then when I have everything there to do the swap. As for brakes the whole reason I'm going to this 109 is for the brakes, as an 88 with a 3.5 V8 on non servo brakes will be interesting, so planning on running the larger twin leading shoe type. So I am not overly concerned with ground clearance (I say that now), as I would rather a coil sprung newer diesel car to do off roading with. My series is more of a restoration/rebuild, and I've already made compromises on functionality for originality. But a Salisbury Axle would help on those times I do venture onto the muddy brown stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I thought you can fit the bigger brakes to your 88 anyway, later models certainly had uprated brakes, although the 109 6cyl/V8/1-ton setup is the most effective (different to "standard" 109 brakes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hmm. With a 3.5V8, will it not take 3.54 diffs anyway, which are stronger than Series 4.7 diffs, and a much easier animal to work on ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hmm. With a 3.5V8, will it not take 3.54 diffs anyway, which are stronger than Series 4.7 diffs, and a much easier animal to work on? How are 3.54's easier? They're the same thing, just different gearing... 3.54:1 leaf-sprung Salisburys can be hard to find too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 I thought you can fit the bigger brakes to your 88 anyway, later models certainly had uprated brakes, although the 109 6cyl/V8/1-ton setup is the most effective (different to "standard" 109 brakes). That is the plan, I have become side tracked by the Salisbury Axle lol. Hmm. With a 3.5V8, will it not take 3.54 diffs anyway, which are stronger than Series 4.7 diffs, and a much easier animal to work on? I take it they are Range Rover diffs so give better on road ability?? But wouldn't they affect the off road ability?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 How are 3.54's easier? They're the same thing, just different gearing...3.54:1 leaf-sprung Salisburys can be hard to find too. Because its only 10 nuts to change the diff. No spring mods required, no prop mods required. And, if you break it, they're easier I think to work on, as the diff comes out in one whole unit, rather than on a salisbury where the bearings are all in difficult to reach places, it's not so easy to set the pinion height without the right tools, you need to mod the spring saddles, need to mod the prop. If strength is the issue I'd change the diff, not the axle, or ask Nige to peg it. 3.54 diffs will change your gearing so the top speed engine revs will be lower, but you do loose a bit of grunt in low range off roading, which is why Ashcroft do the high ratio transfer box. I have never had any issues with my TDi though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 Because its only 10 nuts to change the diff. No spring mods required, no prop mods required. And, if you break it, they're easier I think to work on, as the diff comes out in one whole unit, rather than on a salisbury where the bearings are all in difficult to reach places, it's not so easy to set the pinion height without the right tools, you need to mod the spring saddles, need to mod the prop. If strength is the issue I'd change the diff, not the axle, or ask Nige to peg it.3.54 diffs will change your gearing so the top speed engine revs will be lower, but you do loose a bit of grunt in low range off roading, which is why Ashcroft do the high ratio transfer box. I have never had any issues with my TDi though. Hmmmm. Makes me think I'm better off keeping my standard axle, maybe get the Salisbury anyways and see whats what in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I've just changed a Rover diff, after mine collapsed at christmas. Its 8 bolts to get the prop off, 12 to get the drive flanges off and halfshafts out, then 10 nuts and the diffs out if it dies. A replacement discovery diff to fit cost me £20, and took me 3 hours in total.. If it had been The 109 that let go, which is a Salisbury, it would be a completly different story. For a start, it'd be a damn sight more expensive to get a replacement axle or new R&P gears. Then you need a case spreader to do the job properly. There's no denying that the Salisbury is a much much stronger axle and the chance of it failing is much less. But for an occasional use vehicle, which requires modiication to make it fit, do you want to go to the effort? I'm changing the gears in The 109's salisbury from series 4.7 to defender 3.5, its not a job I'm looking forward to. I have got a Stage 1 V8 Salisbury axle which I could just refurb and swap over, which has already got 3.5 diffs, but its destined for my project, so at some point I'd have to change over the other axle gears anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I too would keep the Rover rear axle and just uprate the brakes on that. Again, they're a direct swap, and 109 spec brakes were fitted as standard to the 1980+ rationalised axles. It would also then be very easy to uprate the diffs to 3.54, which will help enormously with mpg and cruising rpm with the V8 engine - with 4.71 diffs, you'll run out of gears even with an overdrive, and will be revving the engine uncomfortably hard at a mere 60mph, which is a problem I had with my Tdi retrofit. I am now using 3.54 diffs, which are a bit too tall for my liking, but my 109 has a lot of extra drag and weight because oft he various fixtures and accessories, but are still a big improvement over the standard diffs and have given me a 13% fuel saving while making driving at 60-70mph comfortable. Swapping the diffs on Rover axles is simple - you just eed to remove the prop shafts, half shafts and the ring of nuts securing the diff housing to the axle case. £.54 diffs will drop straight in, though you must make sure you use the 10-spline diffs from an earlier Discovery or RRC, or from a pre-Defender 90/110. The Salisbury diffs can be swapped too, but it's a complex and difficult job. Either swap will need recalibration of the speedo, which will under-read by 25% (you will be travelling 1/3 faster than indicated). JDO1.com and Speedycables both offer this service, and I just got mine back from JDO (I haven't tested it yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I think we were at cross-purposes, I meant I don't see how 3.54 rover diffs are easier than 4.7 rover diffs. I agree Jim's better off just sticking with the Rovers as you don't need a sals to fit the bigger brakes. I ran 3.54's in my 109 for a while but did find hill descents were not so good, and on-road it still needed more gearing even with the overdrive as the 3.9 was doing more revs than it needed. Unfortunately the answer to that sort of thing is to move to an LT230 transfer case which is geared correctly for the diffs, but that leads to a main gearbox swap as well, etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I think we were at cross-purposes, I meant I don't see how 3.54 rover diffs are easier than 4.7 rover diffs. I agree Jim's better off just sticking with the Rovers as you don't need a sals to fit the bigger brakes. Ah, I see! I can see why too, I should have ended with 'easier to work on, than a Salisbury My bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 So the general consensus is that if I don`t want to change my gearbox, then that I'm better off with 3.54 diffs??Tbh the main work the vehicle will be doing is road based, as I don`t want to ruin it, BUT I will be using it off road so don't want to lose the ability it has.As for 60+ mph, I'd just use A-roads, and tbh the amount of driving I'd be doing in this is not great either. It would be a "Lets take the Landy out for a spin" and roads chosen accordingly esp for summer use with no roof/windscreen. It wouldn`t be "I need to go to Cardiff (50+ miles) lets take the Landy", more take the Impreza or anything else available lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Gearbox? Why gearbox? no mention of gearbox previously...I'm confused dot com! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 I ran 3.54's in my 109 for a while but did find hill descents were not so good, and on-road it still needed more gearing even with the overdrive as the 3.9 was doing more revs than it needed. Unfortunately the answer to that sort of thing is to move to an LT230 transfer case which is geared correctly for the diffs, but that leads to a main gearbox swap as well, etc. etc. This is where I got gearbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I fitted SII suffix B low range gears to reduce the off road effects of the 3.54 diffs. They're a straight swap for the later spec gears and I was able to do it without removing the unit from the vehicle. They drop the ratio by about 17% compared to the more common low range, so that offsets half of the gearing increase of the diffs when in low range. The V8 should have a bit more engine braking than the original engine, going from 2.25 to 3.5 litres with a similar compression ratio, so the remaining gearing increase should 't have too severe effects unless you do very long steep descents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Jim Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 I fitted SII suffix B low range gears to reduce the off road effects of the 3.54 diffs. They're a straight swap for the later spec gears and I was able to do it without removing the unit from the vehicle. They drop the ratio by about 17% compared to the more common low range, so that offsets half of the gearing increase of the diffs when in low range. The V8 should have a bit more engine braking than the original engine, going from 2.25 to 3.5 litres with a similar compression ratio, so the remaining gearing increase should 't have too severe effects unless you do very long steep descents. I don't know what gearbox I have, only thing I can find from having a look under at 01:50am is on the transfer box, raised up in the casting is this. HDA4 539788 The V8 I have has the Comp ratio 9.35:1 which I gather is from an SD1, as its a higher ratio???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 It's very unlikely that you have the SII suffix B transfer box - not that many were made. Suffix C is the same as all the later SII and SIII units (except 1-ton models). Suffix A had a smaller diameter shaft through the intermediate cluster, so they wouldn't fit anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 This is where I got gearbox. Got ya! I would seriously think about doing what I did, remove the front prop, and swap the rear diff for a 3.54 ratio one before making any firm decisions, unless you really really want to fit a Salisbury, which I'm not decrying. See how the V8 performs, up and down hill, and see whether it takes to having the lower ratio diff. It'll take you about 4 hours to do on your own. You need new prop shaft nuts for refitting the rear prop (which you don't need to take off the handbrake end by the way), and liquid gasket for fitting the new diff, and refitting the drive flanges...for the sake of about 5 quid, I'd get some new drive flange bolts too, I noticed mine were a bit ropy when I took them out at Christmas. If the V8 doesn't like it, which I'd be very surprised at, you can either swap the diff back, and I guarantee you'll find a buyer for it, or go for the Salisbury swap. If it does like it, then swap the front aswell, refit the front prop, and try it off road. I'll wager you'll be happy with the performance of 3.54 diffs with the V8. Note! Don't refit the front prop until both front and rear diffs are the same ratio! Things will be destroyed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Nick do you know the part numbers for the gears you used? I'm toying with the idea of doing Kettle's t'box the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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