bill van snorkle Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Chopping chassis at middle will involve lot´s of calculations by an engineer and tests at mechanical lab for making it approved by spanish MoT and make it road legal.Nice VOLVO, but have never seen one of those in Spain. Bill, I think this is the 101 video you mentioned Here is another one where we can see the see saw fulcrum problem in a ENASA/Pegaso BMR from spanish army I was thinking that maybe some soft springs + x-prings will make it to behave like a walking beam. Just think in a situation like hte 101 in the dune: -Front axle goes up to the dune -Mid axle tends to be airborne BUT x-prigs push it to touch ground -As part of the waight from mid axle has been tranfered to rear one, it´s soft spring will collapse AND thus lower the wehicles tail. At the top of the dune, just the oposite: mid axle is compressed and rearmost one pushed to ground by x-prings. Certainly rear CVs should be heavy duty ones and 4.75 cwp + lockers a must. I will have a look at Kruppe´s suspension design. BTW, how is a 275:1 ratio achieved? I admit that the 101 6x6 is an extreme example of a poor design, and that softer springs would have improved the situation a bit, but not as much as a full load equalising suspension. The only possible advantage those stiff unlinked springs would give, is that the trucks front wheels would have less ground pressure on relatively flat boggy surfaces because all the weight behind the leading rear axle centreline would act as a couterweight on the opposite side of the fulcrum (leading axle)thus opposing the force of the front axle to sink downwards. BTW it would be advisable to check with your local regulations,That 101 would be illegal in Australia for example, as any tandem axle set with an axle spacing of more than 40'' must have a load equalising suspension. You could probably lose a few more inches from your transmission length if you shorten the gearbox input shaft and fit the rare 200TDI Defender bellhousing. I made a slight miscalculation with my gear ratios. Using a calculator as opposed to my brain the actual ratio comes out at 267.8:1, and this is acheived with an old Ford Thames Trader 4 speed gearbox with 6.55:1 first gear, mated to a suffix B Series transfer case with 2.88:1 low range, a Borg Warner planetary reduction unit with 2.57:1 low range fitted to the PTO aperture, all feeding in to 3.54:1 diffs driving into 1.56:1 portal reduction hubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 Here http://www.rakeway.co.uk/page12.html are manufacturing short rear ends for LT230 (70mm shorter). That will help with angles. Spanish regulations treat 40" or less wheelbase pair of axles as "one axle", but I don´t know if load sharing device is compulsory over 40" like in Oz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Here http://www.rakeway.co.uk/page12.html are manufacturing short rear ends for LT230 (70mm shorter). That will help with angles. Spanish regulations treat 40" or less wheelbase pair of axles as "one axle", but I don´t know if load sharing device is compulsory over 40" like in Oz 70mm is certainly a worthwhile gain, and if you can win an additional 80-100mm at the bellhousing that would be quite useful too. When you get a chance, could you draw a rough plan drawing of the axle transmission layout for the 2nd and 3rd axles? I'll go back and read the thread from the beginning in case I missed it, but I'm assuming the diff on axle number 2 will point to the rear? I'm tending to favor the independant suspension idea for axle number 2, using Trooper or Shogun components, otherwise you would have very limited up travel with a beam axle under the mid section of the chassis unless you raise the vehicles height significantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Looking at the Kruppe spare wheels gave me an idea that would be totally impractical to do with a complex body structure like the Disco, particularly in Spain with all the modification restrictions, but might work with a right hand drive Series body/chassis. If the centre axle had a sufficiently wide track width,and the driver and passenger seats, plus steering column, pedals etc were moved closer to the centre of the cab, then you can sit between the wheels of the centre axle with sufficient vertical and lateral space for a respectable degree of suspension up travel.For a 50'' wheelbase, to do a proper job to allow enough suspension travel even with an 88'' chassis it would need to be cut in half and the dropped section shortened by around 35 cm.When it was all done you could use the wheel arches as armrests. A quick measure of my portal axled SWB with a 168cm wheel track width (centre to centre of 28cm wide tyres) reveals that the distance between the tyres inner sidewalls is 140cm. The distance from outside of drivers and passenger seats is 135cm. The clutch/brake/accellorator pedals, steering column and seat can be easily moved inwards another 12cm, or even more with a bit of surgery to the engine recess on the bulkhead.This would give a gap between the sidewall of the tyre and seats of around 15cm, which is more than the 10cm clearance between the sidewall and the vertical wall of the rear wheelboxes of a series 109 on 7.50x16 tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I have to thank you for starting this thread Teunico. Even if the project doesn't get off the ground, for personal reasons that I won't go into here, I really needed the mental exercise and distraction to re focus my mind for a couple of days. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Here is a Esarco 8x8 layout I modiffied with photsop As you see, mid axle will be located with diff on LH and rearmost LT230 PTO will be used as Power Take IN. Independent suspension will solve "A" frame location problem, but I don´t know if halfshafts will clear from chassis rail. BTW, what you know as "SHOGUN" were marketed in Spain as "MONTERO" (MONTE=MOUNT, MOUNTAIN). In rest of continental europe it was sold as "PAJERO", but in spanis "PAJA" means "dry grass" and also "exercise". So, grey market and secondhand imports are "MITSHUBISHI exerciser" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 It looks that there is some kind of "moral" corrector here. That "exercise" is WAN * ING :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 That Krupp has been an inspiration, so, back to the drawing table and a bit more of photoshop This way I will solve all problems related to under-seat axle trailing arms and suspension (it will have no susp. and will be located by securing it directly to chassis with "U" bolts). Rearmost axle will be a "Wolf" type one and have a propper boggie made with a pair of Rover stub axles and Santana parabolic springs from a 109". 8x8 layout will be the same as Esarco. Fully chopped ends and reworked bumpers will shorten vehicle in nearly the same amount that the rearmost axle added length, so will be no longer than a standard Disco, with the added benefit of extra loadspace. Only problem with this design is turning circle. In theory it will behave like a 120" one (assuming a 100+40" wheelbase). Vehicle´s gross weight will be something to consider. Does anyone know how much an axle weights ? And a LT230? Anyone experienced fiddle brakes WITH Torsen/ATB type diffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 This is also interesting (wait until 1min 15sec for the most interesting part) It´s the brazilian ENGESA Boomerang arrangement mentioned by Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 It looks that there is some kind of "moral" corrector here. That "exercise" is WAN * ING :-P In Australia the Isuzu Trooper is actually named Holden Jackaroo and is marketed here by General Motors Holden. The Mitsubishi Shogun is called the Pajero, which apparently is Spanish for wan-er, or in more PC language 'owner operator'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 This is also interesting (wait until 1min 15sec for the most interesting part) It´s the brazilian ENGESA Boomerang arrangement mentioned by Bill With your internet searching skills Teunico, is there any way you can find out if there is a gear reduction inside the boomerang bogie? On the discussion you linked to on an earlier post involving 'NightTrain', myself and others, Nightrain mentioned that Scammell determined that a 2:1 reduction in the walking beam was important to prevent wheel lift due to torque reaction.I'm just curious if Engasa came to the same conclusion? Just judging by the spacing of all the idler shafts in the above photo, it appears it would have equal diameter gears, although there may be planetary reduction in that large external hub between the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thanks Phil for your info on six wheeled Disco.Surfing the net I´ve found this awesome rig (sorry, not a Landy) <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZkpeOzAIZ-M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Looking at the independant suspension system on the video it appears that this vehicle was built using 4 front axle assemblies from Ford M151 quarter ton 4x4's, used in large numbers during the Vietnam war and by Israeli defence forces. The diffs on those vehicles were designed as thru drives with drive flanges on both ends of the overhead pinion shafts,like a scaled down Rockwell, so no additional transfercases are required to make 6,8, 10 or even 20 wheel drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 This is also interesting (wait until 1min 15sec for the most interesting part) It´s the brazilian ENGESA Boomerang arrangement mentioned by Bill Based on experience with my portal gears which use doubled up Series transfercase gears for strength,to build a similar walking beam using LandRover parts would require 24 series 1 or 2 low range slider gears,4 low range intermediate gears, 12 transfercase output shafts, and 28 ball races. Anyone got any spares? A couple of extra years tacked onto my life allowance would come in handy as well. Can anyone calculate the frictional losses when compared to an additional differential, extra transfercase plus 2 extra propshafts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 I will investigate about boomerang... Meanwile a video of more boomerang action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I must resist playing these YouTube videos, as they really gobble up my 3 gigabyte per month wireless internet allowance limit. That housing protruding out from the walking beam between the wheels must be a planetary reduction unit because in that location I cannot imagine what other purpose it could serve.and it does tend to spread the bogie wheels further apart than what would be considered ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Bill - if you click on the little cog icon at the bottom & select the lowest quality (240p usually) it will save a load of bandwidth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 Unfortunately I have been unable to discover boomerang´s ratio. Only thing I know is that boomerang was a ENGESA own design wich was widely used in it´s product range, including EE-9 and EE-11 armoured vehicles and was also used by brazilian army in Mecedes Benz L1519 trucks. A part´s catalogue or pics from an overhaul will at least show us if there is really some planetary reduction device in it. This is the only overhaul pic I have found Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Bill - if you click on the little cog icon at the bottom & select the lowest quality (240p usually) it will save a load of bandwidth. Oh Thanks Fridge. I'll give that a go after the 16th when my account is recharged. My limit for the month has been exceeded and I'm now at dial up speed. 50 bucks a month for a paltry 3 gig! Do we have the most expensive Wireless Internet in the world? Thanks again for the pics Teunico.apparently quite a few EE9s were used by the Iraq military and were destroyed in operation desert storm. What search engine do you employ? I waste ages on Google some days and seem to get now where. Knowing what I know now, I would have made my own walking beams 10 years ago.But with all the compromises and relative complexity of any type of light vehicle 6x6 design, it is extremely difficult to improve on the overall road going and cross country performance of a well developed 4x4. The ultra short wheelbase 4x4 with powered axle trailer would still give the best mobility and be mechanically quite simple, but probably not ideal family transportation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Boomerang reminds me a lot of the Praga V3s, very common and cheap in Eastern Europe, could be a good parts donor. Oh and the axles are portal too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Boomerang reminds me a lot of the Praga V3s, very common and cheap in Eastern Europe, could be a good parts donor. I spotted a couple of V3's in South Vietnam a few years ago, which suggests that they may have been provided to the North Vietnamese Military along with a lot of Soviet and Chinese vehicles during the Vietnam war, because the south were supplied with American equipment. A more interesting mystery is why there are so many 404 unimogs over there. were the Germans quietly supporting the Communist North? As parts donors, V3 axles would probably be equivelant in weight to the US Rockwells, so popular with American redneck 4x4 builders. Do we really want to go there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 As parts donors, V3 axles would probably be equivelant in weight to the US Rockwells, so popular with American redneck 4x4 builders. Do we really want to go there? Mmmmm...... rockwells............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 I consider myself as a kind of redneck and a rat-look lover. This Praga is not the walking beam type, but has good ariculation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 Bill, I allways use Google. I have made a teorical layout (I have not measured Disco´s chassis yet to see if three LT230´s and two added axles will fit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 BTW 1st LOW-LOW ratio will be 212 to 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 That's an interesting drawing, but why not do the Esarco method and save an LT230? Why not put the two LT230's that drive the wheels on either end of the first LT230, that would give you a centre diff between the two boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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