bill van snorkle Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Just visited Pirate 4x4.com to learn that the UK/Aus,Team Gigglepin won the USA's premier offroad event, known as King of the Hammers (KOH) after starting the race in last place. Well actually they came first in the Everymans race the day before but didn't claim the win because their Defender was fitted with full hydro steering, which doesn't comply with the Everymans class. Unfortunately they broke a Force9 rear diff and A frame mount in the big race the following day and DNF'd.Still a brilliant effort against specialised purpose built vehicles in what is basically a Challenge truck. I was surprised to come here and not find a thread on it already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 There's a lot over on Devon4x4 forum, 18 pages or so. Shame it's not here, I suppose it would have only taken one person to start a thread and it take off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Was watching Jim's progress on Devon 4x4 and Pirate Cracking drive tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Not much support for team Gigglepin here I can see NOT necessarily true Bill. Many people including myself have been watching them live via internet during the entire event (car number 0069). Sorry that we didn't find it necessary to post that fact here at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 What's to discuss ? There's plenty of discussion elsewhere, no need to plaster it everywhere. What the hell, my 2c given that you broached the subject... I've no idea if "winning" the everyman challenge was an achievement or not because I wasn't there and I haven't competed in it myself. As far as I can see they were running a vehicle that had major advantages over the opposition that nobody else was allowed to have. They used that advantage to finish ahead of everyone else but were then disqualified as expected. I feel sorry for the guy that eventually was announced the winner because Jim and Wayne "stole" his moment of glory on the finish line. From what I can see in the run up to the event and the KOH event itself they drove the vehicle too hard and killed it resulting in a DNF. It happens but hardly something to shout about. I'm not even sure that they completed a lap ? It hardly takes driving skill to f**k your vehicle on the first lap, pretty much anyone could have done that and many did. The hard bit is judging how fast you can drive without breaking your truck in the process. Good on Jim and Wayne for giving it a go but let's keep it in perspective. Sorry if i seem a bit harsh but it's been bothering me and I needed to get it off my chest with all the sycophants fawning all over the forums and Facebook ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I followed it and wished Jim all the best before he left. I suppose the fact that jim is not on this forum much anymore made people to make comments on devon. I think it is good performance, but clouded by the rules. He was told before hand that he could not win because he has hydro steer. If only he lifted before the end he would have been second and classified. It is all a bit odd in my mind because he passed tech while the organizers knew his car was not legal. They could also have classified him in ultra 4 regulations, than he would have been legal. (but certainly not have been fastest) There is no logic to the whole thing in my mind, both of the organizers and on jims part, it is a pretty basic thing to prepare the car to the rules before setting of to the usa with it. Still, a cracking drive of jim, I dont take anything away from his achievement. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyninety Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Yep, i sat and watched the live video feed and watched the live tracking system for hours. If im honest there is so much on Facebook now i barely have to come on the forums, there has been a tremendous amount of support on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 I followed it and wished Jim all the best before he left. I suppose the fact that jim is not on this forum much anymore made people to make comments on devon. I think it is good performance, but clouded by the rules. He was told before hand that he could not win because he has hydro steer. If only he lifted before the end he would have been second and classified. It is all a bit odd in my mind because he passed tech while the organizers knew his car was not legal. They could also have classified him in ultra 4 regulations, than he would have been legal. (but certainly not have been fastest) There is no logic to the whole thing in my mind, both of the organizers and on jims part, it is a pretty basic thing to prepare the car to the rules before setting of to the usa with it.Still, a cracking drive of jim, I dont take anything away from his achievement. Daan I believe there was an agreement with the organisers to allow Jim and Wayne to compete for the hell of it, with the understanding that they would not be eligable to claim a win should that eventuate. The organisers were remiss IMO in not letting the other competitors know of the agreement before the race. From what I read, I don't think they originally intended to enter the Everyman race when preparing the truck in the UK, and may not have had a r/h/drive steering box or linkage once in the US in order to comply with those rules. Not too sure how much advantage hydro steer would have given them over other competitors though aside from removing yet another weakarse LandRover component from the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I don't claim to know the full details but the way it was explained to me was that they were allowed to compete but were warned that, should they place well, they should expect protests from other competitors. Scrutineering at most motor sport events (including UK) covers safety aspects but it is the competitor's responsibility to ensure their vehicle meets eligibility and safety regulations. Generally speaking on matters of eligibility the onus is on other competitors to raise an objection by lodging a protest with the event stewards (or their equivalent) unless the event has a specific eligibility scrutineer such as happens at some single marque competitions (Formula Ford, for example). Any vehicle that finishes in a podium position is bound to come under scrutiny by both officials and other competitors and in this case the protests were lodged around the steering and, probably more importantly, the tyres. "Sticky" tyres are not allowed in that particular competition and their "illegal" use would give a major benefit to any vehicle that did use them, particularly when the rest of the vehicles did not. Jim and Wayne may have been able to stave off a protest regarding the steering but the tyres protest was the clincher from what I can gather as that gave them an obvious competitive advantage. I have a feeling, though I could well be wrong as it's a few years ago, that Wayne was one of those who lodged a similar protest following the 2007 Outback Challenge when the winning team were judged to have been in breach of safety regulations that gave no real competitive advantage. That protest was correct IMV, as were the protests in this case and I think both Jim and Wayne accepted and probably expected it. In hindsight, pulling up short of the finish line would have been the best outcome but hindsight, as they say, is a wonderful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Just for clarification (as I had seen the comment elsewhere to) what in this case are 'sticky' tyres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Sticky tyres are a much softer and stickier compound, and not road legal. The rule for the Stock-Mod class is that it must be a DOT-approved tyre of at the most 37". The class also calls for a mechanical steering linkage, and thus full hydro is not allowed. They indeed knew this from the start, and got the approval of Dave Cole, one of the organisers, to run the EMC race, knowing full well they'd be DQ'd if they won. They didn't really expect to win. Perhaps they should've stopped before the finish line, or more to my liking would've been to announce their DQ on the podium so Currie could give his victory speech (although he got his say on the podium too, so not much lost there IMHO). It was still very nice to see them go for it, and this way they got to run two races instead of one. As for the main race, I believe they made it well into the second lap. First breakage was the A-frame mount at the chassis, which they fixed on course, and the second breakage was a blown R&P on the rear Force9. After this they limped off-course to the main pits and threw in the towel. Still a sterling effort! Their EMC report can be found here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujd0vrxp4j4dspx/Blank%204.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 They are a specialist tyre that uses a softer compound than you would normally use giving the tyre better traction, especially on rocks. Most of the big off road tyre manufacturers can supply them, Maxxis, BFG. Goodyear etc... Outwardly they use the same pattern as "normal" tyres but, depending on the manufacturer, they have additional markings to show that they are the "sticky" version. They are not "road legal". I believe the compound they use is similar to the compound that drag racers use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Cheers for that guys, I had no idea that off road motor sport went to that extreme .... I thought that softer compounds were just for road racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Well this is the first mention I have read of the event. I don't get on the other forums much and don't follow GP on FB. Interesting reading here that the team became embroiled in some kind of controversy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbloke Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Sticky tyres? Ah, you must mean the new Simex Treacle Extreme........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanker Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 What's to discuss ? There's plenty of discussion elsewhere, no need to plaster it everywhere. What the hell, my 2c given that you broached the subject...I've no idea if "winning" the everyman challenge was an achievement or not because I wasn't there and I haven't competed in it myself. As far as I can see they were running a vehicle that had major advantages over the opposition that nobody else was allowed to have. They used that advantage to finish ahead of everyone else but were then disqualified as expected. I feel sorry for the guy that eventually was announced the winner because Jim and Wayne "stole" his moment of glory on the finish line. From what I can see in the run up to the event and the KOH event itself they drove the vehicle too hard and killed it resulting in a DNF. It happens but hardly something to shout about. I'm not even sure that they completed a lap ? It hardly takes driving skill to f**k your vehicle on the first lap, pretty much anyone could have done that and many did. The hard bit is judging how fast you can drive without breaking your truck in the process. Good on Jim and Wayne for giving it a go but let's keep it in perspective. Sorry if i seem a bit harsh but it's been bothering me and I needed to get it off my chest with all the sycophants fawning all over the forums and Facebook ! Very well said and also dont forget - its a great oportunity to show of your winches at any cost..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Very well said and also dont forget - its a great oportunity to show of your winches at any cost..... absolutely! It may not heal the UK deficit, but I would imagine this competition will result in some significant international sales of the GP winches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landy_andy Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I've no idea if "winning" the everyman challenge was an achievement or not because I wasn't there and I haven't competed in it myself. As far as I can see they were running a vehicle that had major advantages over the opposition that nobody else was allowed to have. They used that advantage to finish ahead of everyone else but were then disqualified as expected. I feel sorry for the guy that eventually was announced the winner because Jim and Wayne "stole" his moment of glory on the finish line. I don't think having a full hydro setup & stickies is a real major advantage when he was up against trucks that were running link suspension, coil-overs, D60 1 ton axles, hydro assist etc... the only reason full hydro's not allowed is that it makes the vehicles non-road legal in most (prob all) US states for the simple fact that there is no mechanical connection between the driver & the steering axle. I'd say his truck is on a par with a 'hobby built' dual purpose daily driver & weekend wheeler for north America & Canada. Heck my buddies wheel at the weekends with KOH competing buggies..... And yes, I did follow the races on FB & the live feed.... rooting for Jim & my Canadian buddies in cars #313, #4410 & #4487.... just my 2c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I'm just back from watching the race on the lake bed in California. In summary it was an amazing experience. I hope I will be lucky enough to go back again (assuming the US Marines don't grab the land) to watch. If I had the money to blow I'd enter like a shot. Re Jim. I didn't go as part of his team, we met up with them once a day and said hello, but that was it. He set a cracking pace in the LCQ, but the drives side front king pin expoded and the drivers side front wheel hub came off..... EMC - I knew he was racing for the hell off it. Given the ability for the car to fall to bits we thought it was a bit of a mistake. Later in the day we were in front of the big screen as he finished (we were the ones with the union jack). I understand that before he pulled up onto the podium that Jim asked Dave Cole if this was where he was disqualified. I understand that Dave Cole told him that he had won and to pull up onto the podium. Given the effort to get to California, get the car through testing, repairs, etc and then do ~135 mile off road and come over the finish line 1st, it would take a very very cool headed individual not to pull onto that podium when invited by the main man. I would have done. He was anounced as the winner. Tellingly the next day in the main KOH race when Randy Slawson came in 1st the anounces called him the '1st finisher' and started talking about the need to verify the position - i.e. the organisers learnt from the previous days events. Jim, in my view, was lead by the organisers, he did not do any thing wrong. The main race felt semi gladitorial. 127 started, 27 finished. To finish in time you needed to drive like you stole it (right up Jim's street!). However with the right axles and suspension links I do belive it is possible to finsh in a 90/110 with a hand full of luck. However to get in the top ten would be impossible. Oh, Amercians can't winch to save thier lives....... One team at Choclate Thunder were painful to watch. 25 minutes to do 3 minutes work. Adrian Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Oh, Amercians can't winch to save thier lives....... One team at Choclate Thunder were painful to watch. 25 minutes to do 3 minutes work. It could be because their vehicles are so capable, they don't get much winching practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 There's a lot over on Devon4x4 forum, 18 pages or so.Shame it's not here, I suppose it would have only taken one person to start a thread and it take off... I could find only 14 pages.As a technophile who wouldn't recognise Jim or Wayne if I tripped over them, I'm more interested in the vehicle, and was disappointed that there was little if any discussion or analysis of why the force 9 front knuckle failed, and why the Force 9 differential failed for the second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I think the GP news stuck up in dropbox/facebook gave more analysis, but I think something in competition are getting to the point where people are getting reluctant to tell all. I think the reason for failure was given that Jim was running early/prerelease knuckles, and the plate that snapped was 10mm, rather than on the current axles they are 20mm. Hole to edge of plate distance was also cited as a possible reason, being slightly too small for the hole in the size of the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I did see the pics in dropbox, some interesting failure modes there. What I think didnt help the failure was the big offset on the wheels, I even saw a wheel spacer, which I consider the work of the devil..... From the picture, the failure was right at the point were the flange ended on the knuckle. This could do with boxing in completely, I reckon, but there is little space for that: Also, I noticed that the ringgear is not quite 9", but more like 8.8". The americans use a 9" or even a 10" ringgear (wich measured actually 9.5"). That cannot have helped strength, but I presume this is a compromise for it to fit to a landrover casing. The first failure was actually the diff journal shearing clean in half, from the pictures. I didn't think it would break there. Anyway, it was a good test for the Force 9, I am not here to slag of the design, I think it is a good product for the price (about half that of a spidertrax setup), so still credit were credit is due. Once the problems are sorted, it will be a good option. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landy_andy Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Also, I noticed that the ringgear is not quite 9", but more like 8.8". The americans use a 9" or even a 10" ringgear (wich measured actually 9.5").That cannot have helped strength, but I presume this is a compromise for it to fit to a landrover casing. The first failure was actually the diff journal shearing clean in half, from the pictures. I didn't think it would break there. Anyway, it was a good test for the Force 9, I am not here to slag of the design, I think it is a good product for the price (about half that of a spidertrax setup), so still credit were credit is due. Once the problems are sorted, it will be a good option. Daan Here are a couple of pic's off my local off-roading forum of a buggy being built in a guys garage for local comps..... front & rear axles are 14 bolt with 40 spline shafts & h/d parts.... as Daan noted above you can't expect an axle built into a LR banjo to perform like these. Doesn't mean there no good.... there always have to be compromises, can't fit a quart into a pint pot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Full KOH/GP report here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd0qcgfqf4e32eq/KOHpdf.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.