B reg 90 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 In my view full hydro steering is the way to go. There is one draw back - no mechical link between the steering wheel and the wheels. This gives two issues: 1/. The endless discussion re legality on the road 2/. Apparently feedback to the steering wheel is vague making high speeds interesting. While at KOH this year I saw a couple of cars that managed to deal with this: Blue Torch Fab Car: This had a three link front suspension with a panhard rod. The steering rack is mounted (obviously) on the axle. According to the driver the suspension design was such that the mechical steering link had only 1/4" plunge over the full suspension travel. Front view of car: Front view of axle: Side view of axle: You can see the steering link in the center going into the rack. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 1) huh? 2) I wonder how much vagueness is inevitable with big soft tyres? PSC's complete setups are supposed to give really good feel, I read this is because of some load sensing valving in the orbital valve. They do setups purely for ultra4 racing. I have seen a build somewhere with a steering box mounted on he front axle, I think it was on pirate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 Re 1/. - I take your point. 2/. I'm not sure how valid it is, but Pirate4x4 says so do it must be true?? I'll find out when I finally finish my build with full hydro! The steering box on the axle is a guy called Jessie Hanes (?). I have some picture some where. I'll put them up. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Hmm Pirate is good, very very good , but ............ that comment does sort of remind me of : Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 Hmm Pirate is good, very very good , but ............ that comment does sort of remind me of : Hmmm.jpg Nige Maybe the intended sarcasm I included when I typed didn't come out there....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Re 1/. - I take your point. 2/. I'm not sure how valid it is, but Pirate4x4 says so do it must be true?? I'll find out when I finally finish my build with full hydro!The steering box on the axle is a guy called Jessie Hanes (?). I have some picture some where. I'll put them up. Adrian I like my knowledge empirical I drove mouse once, (full PSC system) Driven my junk a lot, I know which one steered nicer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Share Posted March 7, 2013 I thought mouse had a POS steering system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Mmmm not sure now you ask, i have a psc pump on the shelf that was brought in with some of the stuff for mouse.i cannot remember going through more than one supplier! it was only 5 years ago though. Whichever supplier, the steering valve definatly had some kind of load sensing function that was tuned to the ram specs. The 180cc industrial danfoss unit on my g wagon was linier, same amount of assistance at all speeds, not very pleasant over 30mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Jesse's rig does not have a steering box mounted to the axle. It has it up near the steering wheel. Using a very short shaft from steering wheel to box. A vertical shaft from steering box arm, down to a bell crank, a horizontal shaft from bell crank at feet to bell crank on axle housing, then drag link to closest wheel and a track rod between each wheel. The bell crank at axle housing is ram assisted. I have ZERO experience with hydro full or otherwise, but more than one person has said it has its disadvantages at speed. One thing to consider is things adding up. Without the luxury of being able to build custom axles and wheels to give us the track width we want and keep scrub radius etc at good numbers. alot are forced to run silly offset wheels for tyre size and clearance. This also could be a factor in poor steering at high speeds cheers Serg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 The poison spyder jeep had a full hydro system but uses a cable as it'd mechanical link, will post pictures when I'm home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Have actually had sone thoughts on the matter some time ago. And a big issue if installing a four link or similar to the front is obviously that you cannot run a conventional steering box because of bumpsteer. But to have a mechanical linked steering without a panhard could maybe be possible with the use of a rack and pinion mounted to the front axle as you would your hydraulic ram. It would clearly have to be a PAS unit. Making the steering link to the steering wheel handle the travel would be no issue with u-joints. Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 I'd like to see them photo's, as I'm guessing they turned the clock back 50 years to 'Vickers Link'. Nothing wrong with Vickers Link, as it pops into any standard drag link on anything, being a ram with a valve on top. But it was no match for the obitrol valve of full hydro steer on plant and agri. I like the idea of the steering wheel shaft going direct to the axel. Some risks I guess, but most of the dislike seemed to be from; Oh no, somthing new, burn him ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyninety Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Bell crank steering isn't really a "new " thing state side. Basically hydro assist with the drag link parallel to the chassis rails. The more I think about it the easier it sounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 everything old is new again. I dont think I see any trick new build and someone like Bill comes and shows pics from 2nd world war rigs with similar design or someone shows pics from the 80s with something like it done. Not kncoking it at all as with new refinements and materials/fabrication things can be made better etc. Just dont think it hasnt been done before especially in the UK or europe. BTW in Jesse's build thread someone posted a expolded parts diagram of an early jeep and low and behold very similar. Jesse said he hadnt even seen it which was cool. There were a few hyd over coilover suspension rigs here in Oz, silly amount of articulation etc. I think John Dobbins Toy 40 series ran steering off a toyota Dyna truck with the link going rearward then a pivot back forward to axle, parrallel with chassis rail. This allowed for the huge axle housing movements realitive to the steering wheel/cab. EDIT: in my post further above where I was talking about Jesse Haines jeep. Referring to many people saying there is an advantage, I was referring to mechanical steering, hyd asist, not full hydro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 the comment about silly scrub radiusses is true, but I looked at KOH pictures and virtually every car with custom build axles still had a big scrub radius. I dont understand it, maybe to package the steering arm, but it looks wrong to me. Maybe there is a reason which I dont understand. yet. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 everything old is new again. I dont think I see any trick new build and someone like Bill comes and shows pics from 2nd world war rigs with similar design Very true! I drove Mouse too, but it was impractical for my daily commute. Those pictures are very... American. I echo Dan's comment #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 well you guys have way more experience than me, heck my 110 is my DD and only rolls 32s and 34s. Going by what I have read, and it was Bills comment so he can correct me, a wider offset ( now I can never remember the correct term offset or backspace) anyway the rim sticking further out on its center, has only 2 positives. Widens track for increased stability and when low speed crawling, turning the fronts make them scribe such an arc that they actuall claw at new ground. If we are talking racing, I would have thought this not worth it and get the housing width right, get rim width and offset right and run less stick out. Help scrub, help wheel bearings and swivel/king pins, help protect brakes etc being inside rim to a degree..... yes it seems alot run wide stick out rims, But I do wonder how much thought gets put into some of them. Although they are custom housings I think alot are buying off the shelf widths and alot of these would suit stock axle shaft lengths....maybe. If it were me, right or wrong, Id prefer the wider housing with normal style LR offset. One of the reasons Team Gigglepin may have suffered their knuckle failure is due to the wheel spacers + wide offset rims. Yes the knuckle was an Ashcroft prototype, but these things did not help at all. Maybe Askcroft will look at a custom housing option for the Force9 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 well you guys have way more experience than me, heck my 110 is my DD and only rolls 32s and 34s. Going by what I have read, and it was Bills comment so he can correct me, a wider offset ( now I can never remember the correct term offset or backspace) anyway the rim sticking further out on its center, has only 2 positives. Widens track for increased stability and when low speed crawling, turning the fronts make them scribe such an arc that they actuall claw at new ground.If we are talking racing, I would have thought this not worth it and get the housing width right, get rim width and offset right and run less stick out. Help scrub, help wheel bearings and swivel/king pins, help protect brakes etc being inside rim to a degree..... yes it seems alot run wide stick out rims, But I do wonder how much thought gets put into some of them. Although they are custom housings I think alot are buying off the shelf widths and alot of these would suit stock axle shaft lengths....maybe. If it were me, right or wrong, Id prefer the wider housing with normal style LR offset. One of the reasons Team Gigglepin may have suffered their knuckle failure is due to the wheel spacers + wide offset rims. Yes the knuckle was an Ashcroft prototype, but these things did not help at all. Maybe Askcroft will look at a custom housing option for the Force9 ?? I guess Team Gigglepin could weld spacers on the ends of the Rover front banjo housing, fit longer inner halfshafts, delete the wheel spacers and run wheels with a more sensible amount of offset. Watching Icelandic lava cliff climbing competitions, you can sometime see the advantage of large scrub radius as traction is failing, swinging the steering wheel one way or the other allows the tyres get a fresh bite on fresh ground. Large scrub radius can be bloody dangerous though if you get a sudden flat or blowout on a big aggressive bias ply offroad tyre at speed in traffic.Ask me how I know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 I guess Team Gigglepin could weld spacers on the ends of the Rover front banjo housing, fit longer inner halfshafts, delete the wheel spacers and run wheels with a more sensible amount of offset.Watching Icelandic lava cliff climbing competitions, you can sometime see the advantage of large scrub radius as traction is failing, swinging the steering wheel one way or the other allows the tyres get a fresh bite on fresh ground. Large scrub radius can be bloody dangerous though if you get a sudden flat or blowout on a big aggressive bias ply offroad tyre at speed in traffic.Ask me how I know! I take it the large scrub radius would not be much advantge on high traction rock as the tyre would already have good traction??? what is you opinon on it for cars doing the rock racing in the USA Bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 I take it the large scrub radius would not be much advantge on high traction rock as the tyre would already have good traction??? what is you opinon on it for cars doing the rock racing in the USA Bill? Like you Serg, i only see disadvantages with a large scrub radius on rock or rock racing due to the excessive loads it places on the steering gear and knuckles (swivels). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) 1/. The endless discussion re legality on the road If parts already used in production IFS models are fitted I see no problem. Making it with cheapo junkyard parts (shogun, trooper...) will be the budget option, but, at least in Spain, braking and steering components cannot be secondhand. Everybody uses them but... Edited March 8, 2013 by o_teunico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 o_teunico - the issue is the lack of mechanical linkage, pump/hose fail = no steering. BUT I'd remind people that road-legality / MOT / SVA discussions are BANNED IN THIS SUB-FORUM because they're tedious and boring and have been done 100 times before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Mmmm not sure now you ask, i have a psc pump on the shelf that was brought in with some of the stuff for mouse.i cannot remember going through more than one supplier! it was only 5 years ago though. Fairly sure Mouse had a PSC ram, and a standard pump. No clue about the steering valve. It drove fairly effortlessly, but did like killing pumps... I never drove her at speed, so can't comment on that, but Filip didn't seem to mind it too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 BUT I'd remind people that road-legality / MOT / SVA discussions are BANNED IN THIS SUB-FORUM because they're tedious and boring and have been done 100 times before. Oooooops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted March 8, 2013 Author Share Posted March 8, 2013 IVA - I planted the seed of that discussion (inadverantly), as it does my head in I ought to say opppssss - sorry! However the intent of the thread was to see what technical discussion arrose about hydraulic steering. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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