Think the engine is dead

[Mark Adams]

Hi,

Just visited a friend with a freelander 1.8, he started the car and after 2 seconds it immediatly stopped and would not restart. When he turned it over it sounds like no compression (same noise you get when plugs are removed). I removed all the plugs and did a compression test these are the findings.

Cy 1: 8 bar (nearest to timing belt)

Cy 2: 6 bar

Cy 3: 8 bar

Cy 4: 14 bar

Odd readings, I tested it about 3 months ago when I serviced it for him (just out of interest) and my notes say that it tested at between 9.5 bar to 10.5 bar across the cylinders.

Not looked into it any further at the moment as I will need to tow it back to my workshop.

Any ideas why this has suddenly happened?

Mark.

[qwakers]

cambelt slipped?

[Mark Adams]

First thing I check was the cam belt and it looks fine and tensioned correctly.

I did not check the timing marks but unlikely to jump a tooth when it is tensioned. I am told it was running fine yesterday.

Mark.

[CwazyWabbit]

Does the camshaft snap in these? Or is that a different Freelander engine?

[qwakers]

ive had a correctly tensioned belt slip more than one tooth on me on a old renault megane... worth a look anyway....

[Mark Adams]

Just went over to make sure it is not the belt and it is perfectly aligned.

Mark.

[Jonners]

Hi Mark - obvious answer, but possibly the head gasket.

Sounds like you will have to take the head off to resolve the problem anyway.

Could be a sticky or bent valve/broken piston ring.

Can't think of anything else that would cause compression loss if the cambelt is OK.

Good luck - Jonners

[Mark Adams]

I am going to try and get it back to my workshop and do a leak down test to try and narrow down the problem. The owner does not want to spend much more money on the car as it has cost him enough already, I think he would rather scrap it and cut his losses, I would rather narrow down the possibilities before doing any major work.

Mark.

[Tanuki]

First thing to do is check that the camshaft(s) is/are going round. Not sure about rhe Freelanders but on quite a lot of modern engines the camshaft-pulley isn't keyed to the camshaft; similarly the bottom toothed-belt pulley isn't always keyed to the crankshaft.

If a bolt works loose pulleys can turn on shafts and big bills are on the horizon.

[Mark Adams]

I have taken the cam shaft cover off and checked that the cams are turning and all looks fine OK.

[Mark Adams]

Just got the car back to my workshop and just quickly did a leakdown test.

More odd results, tried cylinder 3 and had leakage through cylinder 1, when cylinder 1 is blocked off it then leaks through inlet manifold. Similar results for the rest of the cylinders. leaks though next but one cylinder.

Does not sound like head gasket but more like crack in head??

Mark.

[Mark Adams]

Slight change to my previous post, the cylinders leaks are as follows.

1 leaks to 2
2 leaks to 4
3 leaks to 1
4 leaks to 3

All leak to inlet manifold if cylinder blocked off.

[Mark Adams]

Sorry clicked the wrong button and can't delete post.

[Jonners]

Hi Mark,

Seems it's time to take the head off and examine everything thoroughly. Bad news but not too bad a job.

Regards - Jonners

[Mark Adams]

Jonners,

You must have read my mind, I have just finished removing the head, the old gasket is a single metal plate with what looks like orange silicon in critical places (this may not be a good description). It does not have the MLS gasket fitted but does have locating metal dowels.

I can't see any problems with the gasket, I am going to check with the owner if he wants to pay for the head to be skimmed and pressure tested. Even though the head has not be over heated (in his knowledge) I still think that getting it skimmed would be a good idea??

Difficult to know where to go next as I do not just want to put it back together without knowing what the problem was if it pressure tests OK.

Mark.

[Jonners]

Hi Mark,

I can only suggest that everything you can now see (now the head is removed) is checked thoroughly:-

Head and block checked for warping.

Any scoring in the bores.

Is a piston holed.

Any signs of gas leakage between the bores under the gasket - same for head.

Are the valves seated properly - even perhaps a small chip in the valve or seat.

Excessive clearance in the valve guides.

I guess you know all this - just trying to help out.

If this is a pre 2000 1.8 Freelander your mention of metal dowels suggests the head has been off before as I think at this time the K series head used plastic dowels. Another trick the MG people used to use on the MGF(same K series engine) was to drill a 1/8" diameter hole in the flange of the thermostat to allow some cooling fluid to bypass the thermostat at the get go and reduce the thermal shock to the head when the thermostat opened and suddenly allowed hot fluid to enter a cold head.

Lastly I would have the head skimmed anyway.

Hope this helps - Jonners

[Mark Adams]

Both head and block are straight as a die.

Bores are smooth as a baby bum.

All pistons look good with no holes.

No signs of burning between cylinders on either block or head, gasket looks in good condition with no signs of leakage.

Tested the valves with some petrol and most are leaking slightly (so will need lapping), this does not go with the leakage between cylinders though,

Not removed valves yet, so not sure about guides.

The chap that owns the car is not keen of spending much on the repair as he will sell it when back on the road, As he is a friend I am doing the labour for free so just need to keep external costs and part costs low, but still giving a quality repair (if possible).

Thank you for the suggestions.

Mark.

[Jonners]

Hi Mark,

Now I am at a loss to suggest what next. Sticky valve action perhaps. Timing checked and OK, so what else is there?

You have beaten me - hope it does not beat you. Be interested to hear where you go with this.

Regards - Jonners

[davyd8899]

did you get the head pressure tested for cracks?

when the HG goes you cant allways tell just by looking at it, so dont fully rule this out.

leakage across the cylinders.......... if it was leaking into the 1 next to it, eg:-1 leaking into 2 and so on, i would question a possible cracked block if the head comes back pressure tested ok, but if its leaking into the 1 next to it then it has to be between the head and block, the reason its jumping a cylinder is as it leaks out the compression/engine cycle keeps it out of the next door cylinder and heads to the next 1. rubbish desription sorry, but i hope you get what i mean.

is there any way you can get hold of a spare head, and put it on just to do the tests again??

i know you are trying to do this repair as cheaply as possible, but the K series really does need repairing properly to reduce the chance of further failure.

[Mark Adams]

Hi Davey,

I have not managed to get the head tested yet, the company is a little drive away so I am hoping to tie it in with something else.

The HG has been changed before and from a little investigation I found that the current HG is the type recommended for the Lotus Elise and not the Freelander. I know that they use the same K series engine but I have no experience with these gaskets (are they any good)? I was going to change it for the new style Multi-layer gasket but are these Lotus type better or worse?

On your description of why it is jumping a cylinder when it leaks, you mention that it is due to compression in the next cylinder, my only comment about this is that all the spark plugs were removed so there would not be any compression on any other cylinders. As this was found on a leak down test, the pistons were not moving so no compression is being formed. Have I misunderstood your comment?

Unfortunately I am not able to get another head without buying one and even then I would need to get it tested and skimmed so it would not be of much benefit?

I do not like doing jobs on the cheap as it never works out.

I think I am going to get it skimmed and tested and sort out the cost later. My next concern is regarding the valve stand down, if it is skimmed then I may also need to get the valve seats reground (quite a large expense). Does anyone know what the stand down is on these heads? I am only concerned about this as I guess it was skimmed the last time the HG was replaced.

Mark.

[davyd8899]

Hi Mark.

first i must apologise, i misread your post regarding the leakdown test, as there were no plugs and the pistons were stationary then obviously there was no compression.

If the HG has been done before, then I really am of the opinion the head is cracked, what is the year of the car, as you say there are metal dowls, cars before 2000 had plastic dowls, and these were generally replaced for metal ones if the head was already done.

as regards to the head gasket itself, i would be using a multi layer gasket rather than a single layer, it is now recommended to use the MLS on the elise and exige as well as the freelander

the heads on the K series are extremly frigile and 75% of the time if the hg fails then it will crack the head, not saying this is always the case but it is extremely common for this to happen.

i would be getting the head pressure tested before the skim, but if i was a betting man that is where i would be putting my money.

if the head comes back clear of cracks, then obviously you will hae it skimmed, depending on how much they take is off is dependent on whether you need the valve seats reground.

hope this helps

Dave

[Jonners]

Hi Mark,

The manual only gives values for:-

Overall head thickness = 118.95 to 119.05mm

Reface limit (I guess that means regrind limit) = 0.2mm (0.0078 thou in old english)

Max gasket face distortion = 0.05mm

It also gives a value for the installed height of the valve when measured from the end of the stem to the face of the head where the stem protrudes from.

= 38.93 to 39.84 when new & service limit is 40.10mm ie. max after recutting the seat.

It does not give a value for the stand down below the mating face of the head.

Since the manual gives a value for the stand own or recess limit for a Diesel engine valve, but not for a Petrol engine valve, I guess that the value that you want is not critical on a petrol engine due to the port depth being greater, as long as the head thickness and regrind limits are not exceeded. (my thinking - not the manual).

Cheers - Jonners

[Mark Adams]

The trouble with these measurements is that I have no idea what was removed on any previous re-facing operations, I also have nothing that is capable of measuring the thickness of the whole head to that accuracy.

Mark.

[davyd8899]

hi mark,

If i am remembering correctly the MLS, if this is what your going to use, is 0.2mm thicker than the old single layer that was on before, so this would make up the extra being taken off a skim.

[Mark Adams]

The existing gasket is not the standard factory fitted one, it is a solid metal gasket with orange silicon around all the holes, see picture in this link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROVER-75-MGF-FREELANDER-16V-K-HEAD-GASKET-SET-BOLTS-/110126814073?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19a411d379

I have not seen the MLS gasket so not sure if it is any thicker.

Yes, I was going to use the MLS gasket.

Mark.