Innovate fitted now what

[mikec]

Ok guys, in an attempt to try and get this thing running right I've got an mtx-l, fitted it up connected to ms. I've changed the settings in tunerstudio, and also change megatune to wideband. Is there anything I need to change? Also I need to setup the afr table, is that right. It might be setup already but forgot to check when I was outside, if not how do I decide on what figure to use in the cells? Going out in it tomos to tune so hopefully ill sort the problems out, if it doesn't work its all going in the for sale forum :0

[Rob_B]

To have MS use the wideband you need to make an AFR table. I don't have MS on my RRC yet, only on my mk1 Golf GTI. So can't really help with the AFR table yet.

But there is some info for AFR settings for the V8 in the Tune for economy thread. If you are trying to fix a problem you shouldn't start to lean. Get it running good first and after that you could try for more economy if you want.

But even wiyhout setting an AFR table or even setting up that sensor in TS you can use the dail to see what is happening when you drive.

With the sensor setup in TS you can see it in the datalog files too. That way you can drive and check the log later to see if you can pinpoint the problem area.

[mikec]

Ok been out in it for an hour or so, started off with Niges original table, it already had afr target tables on. I noticed straight away on the guage at cruise afr was 17 or so.

Can someone just check these settings and table are ok please?

I'm not too sure on the ego settings, the ego switch point hasn't changed value, presumably it should but I can't find a value anywhere.

Here's the afr target table

And lastly on autotune on ts I'm getting accelflag at the bottom

http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/little_landy/?action=view&current=7624DC91-52EC-432B-B018-E18105858053-5037-00000787E245690C.mp4

So I've changed the value in ae settings for v/s to 0.9 or so, is that the correct way of dealing with it? I'm presuming the accelflag light is coming on because ae is kicking in??

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Mike

When you move to WB the world changes

You have to sort loads of settings processes and tables, and if you don't it either won't work or you stand a good chance of destroying

your engine, I jest not - get things wrong or not close to right and you will be looking for a new engine

I am now sometimes paid by people to tune their engines, a few via a rolling road, most via MLV MT TS etc and I USE NB

It takes longer but gives better contol IMHO WB can rush things give werid readings, they can be flakey and I don't now use WB

unless on a RR

I have tuned more V8s now than I can rememeber, my best tunes are NB and Time care abd checking everything over and over again

The MSQs I give out with the kits are these MSQs many take them are so pleased with the state of tune they do nothing else and just

enjoy - again if you are not happy then there is something WRONG - If you are having big running issues then its not the MSQs it something

else and throwing money at a WB will make no difference.

Yes you can improve on my MSQs of course but its tweaks and minor changes to match your engine versus my more generic MSQ

Your gallopping off at ultra High level tuning theory, worrying about AE and AFR Tables and WB settings, none of which are far off any engine MSQ I supply,

again, if it not running right then its something BASIC.

Throw the WB in the lin bin, shove the NB back in and post up what the issues are

I'll shove a bet down

My MSQ + a bit of careful checkingthat all is as it should be + a NB run or 2 will give a better result than your

whizzy WB and the road you are on. You are missing the basics out and at risk of engine damage if you take a wrong step.

If your engine + my MSQ isn't 8/10 then you have a BASIC fault error flaw etc, and no amount of whizzy WB will sort it

its like arranging the deck chairs on the titanic so it looks good ....iceberg is still there however pretty the chair display

STOP and read the above chap before you go any further down this route. WB tuning really does involve much much more knowledge

undertanding and skill, and, as I said I stopped using WB yonks ago when it caused more probs than it fixed, yes its quick,,but with TS and

MLV you don't need it but when you get awry reading it will F U Up faster than you can say Oooer

Again - if you are not happy with the MSQ then its something on your engine set up that is basically WRONG and is prob simple to sort

To end with if your using a LC1/ WB unit those settings for the WB are so far off don't even start tuning your EGO switch point for a start is a NB setting

In summary

FFS STOP MIKE

Nige

[mikec]

Nb hasn't got me anywhere Nige. Wb the last resort in trying to sort out the problems I'm having. At least now I can at least see what's happening with the exhsust. I'm not 100% sure it isn't something else but ive tried everything that's been suggested and they've all been ok.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

If you can't sort it with NB you sure as won't with WB !

WHAT is the problem(s) ?

List each, be specific as poss and as much info as poss

N

[mikec]

Three issues really,

Firstly flatspot from idle, if I'm under the bonnet and give it some throttle from idle, using the linkage, it bogs down before revving up, had it backfire once or twice doing it too. Not sure how they would rev normally in that situation but it doesn't "feel" right to me.

Secondly, the kangorooing, now I'm not sure if this is an engine problem or not, down my road I have speed humps, if I'm going over them in second or third, lift off to slow down and then accelerate it starts kangorooing, its made worse because there's quite a lot of backlash in the transmission, this may or may not be related to the first problem. Also the kangorooing once started seems to get worse, I had wondered if it was some sort of surging in the fuel system, but can't see how it would

Lastly cold start enrichment is none existent, its like an old car with no choke cable connected, not sure if that needs the pwm connected or not to work, but I've tried it on and off and its no different.

Should also say that the first two problems occur with pwm disconnected, I haven't put it back on other than to see if it affected cold starting.

Other than the hunting problem and the issues above, the map you sent me seems to drive ok.

Cured the hunting problem by putting the ve cells it used to about 55, someone said that was to much, but it does seem to work.

Cheers mike

[Bowie69]

A wideband won't help tune your WUE, or your kangarooing, your problem lies elsewhere IMHO.

Due you have fuel overrun cut-off enabled? If so disable it and try the speed bumps again.

[mikec]

A wideband won't help tune your WUE, or your kangarooing, your problem lies elsewhere IMHO.

Due you have fuel overrun cut-off enabled? If so disable it and try the speed bumps again.

Just had a look now at the over run, didn't know what it was set at but it is on, so will go out and give it a go now.

Cheers mike

[mikec]

Ok been out turned the overun off, its still doing it, the reason I changed the ae setting above is because on ts the "ae driven fuel pct" guage, is going from 100-140 a bit like the old series speedos :0, I got a video but photo bucket is acting up. So I presumed that the ae is kicking in, this is at idle btw.

The reason for the wideband is so I can actually see what's going on with the fuelling, the nb guage doesn't tell me anything but least now I know what it's doing.

[mikec]

Ah ok photo bucket is working now

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/little_landy/9425CC8D-A92E-4170-9DF2-7648A805C05F-15295-00000C1D853792AB.mp4

I should say that since fitting the wb, I disregarded all my other tunes and started from fresh on Niges supplied map.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Can you get a datalog?

I agree with the above - something is wrong with your setup. Accelerator potentiometer or timing spring to mind, but hard to say without a log.

[Bowie69]

Have you calibrated your TPS?

[mikec]

I've got loads of datalogs the problem is there all from different stages of trying to get it tuned, ill do a fresh one tomos,

Yep I have calibrated the tps, numerous times, but ill redo it tomos just incase its lost it on the ecu.

One question, if something is changed on an msq, say I change the overun settings on my latest msq. Does that change only apply to that msq, or if I load up an earlier msq is it changed there too? The reason I ask is every time I've changed something I've always presumed if I go back to Niges original msq everything will be reset?

Cheers guys

[TheRecklessEngineer]

If you upload a new MSQ everything becomes set as the new MSQ.

You'll have to change the file extension on the file before uploading to the forum. Make it a .txt or something like that.

[mikec]

If you upload a new MSQ everything becomes set as the new MSQ.

You'll have to change the file extension on the file before uploading to the forum. Make it a .txt or something like that.

I'm goons go out and do a datalog now, how do I go about changing the file extension exactly? I'm not the best on computers :0

[mikec]

Two datalogs done but did them on ts because I'm not sure what's happening on mt with the wb, the afr guage on ts shows the same as the innovate guage, for some reason its now going lean on the mway? Did a log on Niges original msq then my most recent one too. Don't know how to convert to text file but could email ?

[mikec]

ok gonna try this....

[mikec]

Nope that didn't work, grrrr

[Quagmire]

It takes longer but gives better contol IMHO WB can rush things give werid readings, they can be flakey and I don't now use WB

unless on a RR

I'm sorry Nige but I don't see how a NB can give a better tune than a WB. A NB can still be fooled by excess rich reading as lean and other stuff just like a WB can, after all (as far as I know) a WB actually has a NB sensor at the heart of it.

If a pilot had two lights to tell him to fly higher or lower, and another pilot had a whole range of lights to tell him how much higher or lower he needed to fly, which would you rather be a passenger of?

What I am trying to say is that the WB can still be wrong, but you will in general get a lot more information to help you decide if it is wrong - going back to the case of rich reading as lean, you can normally see things heading rich in the logs before you get a supposedly "lean" spot.

I agree that WBs are not infallible, and just like most things MS it simply means people need to:

A) Have to have a good starting basis (such as your base map )

B) Have done some reading- well a fair bit of reading

C) Take things slowly.

I recently (last week) changed my inlet manifold for a later style one, ditched the flapper injectors and resistor box and went for something more modern and non-LR. With VEAL live and my WB I was able to retweak my VE tables in a few hours of driving about running errands over the bank holiday. It was imperative that the 90 was running well by Tuesday as my wife is now driving it, whilst I have to drive her Polo to work everyday (stupidly low height restriction in new company car park ).

Not trying to sound argumentative at all here, after all without yours and FF's inspirational posts on MS I would still be chugging around on carbs! I'm just chucking in my two pence and trying to defend the poor WB sensor, mine has done me proud

[iomlt]

what engine are you running? 3.5 / 3.9 plus? manual i guess not auto? happy to have alook at one of your logs msq i'm not a expert at all but sometimes a second pair of eyes or a comparison to mine could spot something.

i can even give you my current one as a try might work might not...

[zardos]

Firstly flatspot from idle, if I'm under the bonnet and give it some throttle from idle, using the linkage, it bogs down before revving up, had it backfire once or twice doing it too. Not sure how they would rev normally in that situation but it doesn't "feel" right to me.

I had exactly this with Nige's default map for my 3.9

one short tuning run with a NB and it was fixed.

[mikec]

Cheers guys its a 4.6 manual. I've emailed them to reckless, (hopefully ) he said he'd put them up for me, tried all sorts last might to get them up here but it just wouldn't have it ( read as I couldn't do it :0 )

Annoyingly its running worse now than it was at the weekend, when I did some autotune with the wb.

Oh recalibrated the tps too just in case

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Well that was a fight.

Download and rename extension to .msl

2013-05-13_20.38.24.pdf

[TheRecklessEngineer]

And the other one.

2013-05-13_20.46.56.pdf