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Josh NZ

Stage 1 V8 questions.

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Hi all.

I'm currently in the throes of tidying up my new stage 1 V8 and ive come across a couple of issues.

Firstly, there's an annoying vibration when I accelerate to 50kph. It feels like the truck is driving on a road made of tiny speed bumps. It stops at 60kph but comes back at 70kph. The prop-shafts are properly greased and gearbox/diffs have good clean oil in. Also makes a funny knocking noise when slowing from approx. 10kph to 0kph. What's likely to be the culprit there?

Secondly, my fuel system appears to be a bit of a mish-mash and I would like to return it to standard. I found what looks to be the original facet fuel pump in the under-seat box. What's the best way to check if its junk or still useable? The pump on there now is called a FuelFlo. It looks a bit tinny, and it has a far smaller input/output than the facet. Also has a cheap plastic inline fuel filter on it. I would like to re use the facet if possible.

Another thing is the truck is sometimes quite hard to start. It often needs foot to the floor throttle to get it to turn over but once going, runs nicely and seems to pull well.. but ive never had a v8 so could be completely wrong! I filled the dash pots, changed all the spark plugs to NGK BPR6ES and changed leads a couple of days ago but hasn't made much of a difference to starting. I cant help but think that its a fuel issue? The truck will hesitate and stutter if I put my foot down hard whilst driving, then it will take off.

Also, Im not sure if my fuel tank is original. Its monstrous, sits rearward of the back axle, and the fuel line coming out is too small to fit the facet pumps input tube.

Any info will be greatly appreciated as Im totally new to V8's and I would like to use the truck as my daily driver/work wagon.

Josh

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the fuel pump should be a facet like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Facet-Universal-Electronic-Fuel-Pump-/140974289182?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20d2b8f11e

and was mounted under drivers side floor on chassis ourigger IIRC (I sold mine in 1986) . When starting you should need to pull out the choke (unless engine has been running very recent) then crank engine over and it should start straight up , and as it waarms up push choke in , if you do it to soon it should stutter whentrying to accelerate. The dashpots should be filled (that is the little tube in the middle) with say 3in 1 oil or atf , not too thick.! . It sounds like you may be running too weak , as it should not hesitate when you shove your foot down . That will also contribute to your starting problem. Re filter , there should be an inline filter with a little blue metal bowl . Ther is also a gauze type filter in the facet pump . Re knocking could be a part siezed unijoint , hard to diagnose from armchair , try removing one prop at a time to see if you eliminate . HTSH

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Hi all.

I'm currently in the throes of tidying up my new stage 1 V8 and ive come across a couple of issues.

http://www.stage1v8.org.uk/phpBB3/ is a good place to ask Stage 1 specific questions.

Firstly, there's an annoying vibration when I accelerate to 50kph. It feels like the truck is driving on a road made of tiny speed bumps. It stops at 60kph but comes back at 70kph. The prop-shafts are properly greased and gearbox/diffs have good clean oil in. Also makes a funny knocking noise when slowing from approx. 10kph to 0kph. What's likely to be the culprit there?

Depends on where it's coming from. Probably unbalanced tyres or wheel alignment.

Knocking is a pretty general term. Depends on where it's coming from. Engine, gearbox, diffs, suspension,... All have relative knocks. I assume you have checked the centre diff lock in not engaged.

Secondly, my fuel system appears to be a bit of a mish-mash and I would like to return it to standard. I found what looks to be the original facet fuel pump in the under-seat box. What's the best way to check if its junk or still useable? The pump on there now is called a FuelFlo. It looks a bit tinny, and it has a far smaller input/output than the facet. Also has a cheap plastic inline fuel filter on it. I would like to re use the facet if possible.

To test the facet pump, give it a 12V power source and stick a pipe on each end. Stick the inlet pipe into a container of clean liquid (doesn't have to be petrol, water is OK but clean and dry it out after). If it's working water will be pumped.

There's nothing especially wrong with after market pumps and I know people who have had good service from them. New facet pumps can be quite expensive. Of course, the pump needs to have the right flow rate.

Another thing is the truck is sometimes quite hard to start. It often needs foot to the floor throttle to get it to turn over but once going, runs nicely and seems to pull well.. but ive never had a v8 so could be completely wrong! I filled the dash pots, changed all the spark plugs to NGK BPR6ES and changed leads a couple of days ago but hasn't made much of a difference to starting. I cant help but think that its a fuel issue? The truck will hesitate and stutter if I put my foot down hard whilst driving, then it will take off.

You have installed colder plugs than the recommended BPR5 or 4. Numbers go down, plugs get hotter. It is not surprising it does not start easily, and you will find the engine will not be producing a lot of power either. Probably not a fuel issue, although having the carbs properly tuned is always a good idea and may rule out a number of possible causes.

The stuttering is most likely related to the cold plugs, carbs need tuning, or the fuel pump not providing sufficient fuel. Also check the points and vacuum tube.

Also, Im not sure if my fuel tank is original. Its monstrous, sits rearward of the back axle, and the fuel line coming out is too small to fit the facet pumps input tube.

The OEM parts fit the facet pump. Yours may have been changed. IIRC it is 1/8" diameter.

Any info will be greatly appreciated as Im totally new to V8's and I would like to use the truck as my daily driver/work wagon.

Josh

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Interesting point about the colder vs hotter plugs. I have read a lot on this forum about BPR6ES being the best for V8 motors but the plugs that came out were BPR5, very dirty and not gapped or anything.

The knocking noise sounds like its coming from directly below the cabin. Gearbox/tbox/front prop coupling area I'm guessing. My diff lock light isn't working properly but if it pull the knob thing out, then push it back in, there's a hissing noise which I guess means that it's working..?

I may need to join the stage 1 register too, good point!

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Give the props a good tug around to check for diff and transfer box bearing play. Then remove them to check the UJs - grease doesn't do anything for worn or damaged UJs, and the symptoms do sound like UJs. They should be slightly stiff and completely smooth and have no play at all. they often fail with indentations in the spider's bearing faces, making them corrugated, so they don't have much play and will only be felt to be notch once the prop has been removed. If the yolks flop under gravity as you wave the prop around gently, then the UJs are worn. You can also somethimes get end float in a bad UJ bearing, allowing lateral movement between the yolks even though the rollers and bearing faces are all good, so look for that too.

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Does the stage one front propshaft have the original double cardan joint at the transfer case end? If so it could be that the equalising ball and socket between the UJ's is worn. If not then the vibration could be due to lack of constant velocity that occurrs when a propshaft with a single joint at each end has to deal with a diff and transfercase tilted at different planes.

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The original propshafts are still in it bill.

Nick- I have never changed a UJ let alone checked one, so I would be totally useless haha! I will go to Canterbury Land Rover and get them to cast an eye over it.

One other thing I forgot to mention was that the front springs have been swapped out. They have been replaced by some incredibly daft looking setup comprising of just two leaves. They are super thick but don't look anything like parabolics. It makes the front sit quite low compared to the back which is on 10 leaf including two massive overload leaves. It bugs me, so I want to put in a standard set of front leaves from a 109.

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Checking the UJs is pretty simple, Jim. Chock the vehicle (since you'll be underneath and removing the props, which are essential for the hand brake). You need 9/16" spanners to undo the nuts and bolts. If you have problems getting at the nuts on the hand brake drum end of the rear prop, use a socket and extension bar. It can be tricky with the prop drooping, so disconnect the aft end first and use bungies to hold that end up high to the chassis so the prop is horizontal - that should let you get onto the front end nuts. On standard SII/IIIs, the bolts used on each diff end are the same, but the bolts used on the front end of the transfer box are about 1/4" longer - they won't fit the diff ends without pressing against the diff housing, so try to keep them separate or check them against each other before reassembly. The same might apply on V8s.

Once the props are off, hold them vertically and move each yolk around checking for binding, slop and play. Rotate the yolk from side to side in each axis under torsional force (like engine force) as you make the pivoting movements in each axis, then try to move the joints laterally (shear movement). Any play at all, or any notchiness or binding show a knackered UJ. They should feel a little tight, but move smoothly and evenly in all directions. I think it's likely that yours will flop about with gravity, even if they don't appear to have play, in which case they're up for replacement.

If you take the props off, you'll probably just be charged an hour's labour to replace all the UJs. For the garage to remove and refit the props, I'd expect them to still achieve it within the first hour,but they might run into a second and charge you for it. Make sure you get decent replacements - GKN or Hardy Spicer is what you want, which are OEM. They cost about £15 each here, but in a LR box are three to four times that, so get OEM, not Gen Parts. Make sure they have grease nipples - some cheaper UJs are "sealed for life", which is about 10,000 miles!

Replacing them yourself is simple enough, but you need a few tools like a socket of similar size to the bearing cups, a socket big enough to hold a bearing cup, a lump hammer or heavy mallet, circlip pliers and, ideally, a vice (can be done without the vice, but it's tricky).

Take the grease nipple off the existing UJ and remove all the circlips. Support one yolk arm over the big socket and use the hammer to drive the bearing cup out into the socket by whacking the adjacent yolk arm on either side, using the spider to drive the cup out the bottom arm. Once the cup is out far enough, use the vice or grips to twist and pull it out completely. Then you should be able to disassemble the UJ by sliding the spider towards the open hole and manoeuvering it all apart. Then knock the opposite cup out with the hammer and smaller socket before repeating with the other opposing bearing cups.

To assemble a UJ, clean up all the parts and make sure the holes for the cups and grooves for the clips are clean and free of burrs. Insert one cup into the yolk to about half its depth using the vice (with no vice, it can be done with a copper mallet, but the needles are prone to dropping out, so have a clean cloth spread out underneath to catch them). Then put the spider (with grease nipple removed and nipple hole sided towards the main length of the prop) into the yolk by putting the first leg into the opposite hole, squaring it up and dropping a leg into the cup, making sure you don't dislodge any needles in the process. Press the cap flush with the yolk and fit the opposite cup. Then do the same with the other yolk and cups.

Once all cups are loosely in place, press them in further with the vice (or hammer) and small socket just far enough to get the new circlips in. Do one at a time, as when you do the opposite side, it will press the already finished cups back against their circlips, seating them correctly.

This will leave you with a slightly off centre spider, with the first two cups pressed against their clips and the last two slightly clear of their clips. To resolve this sit the yolk on a tough bench or the floor and give the adjacent, not opposite, yolk arms a firm tap with the mallet or hammer to get the spider to knock the cups down against the clips - do this in all four cups to make sure they're all seated. Finally, fit the grease nipple and pump in some LM grease until it emerges through the cup seals.

If that doesn't make sense, watch it being done by your garage so that you can do it yourself in the future.

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Thanks for the info nick, and Bowie, that link is great! Got some reading to do methinks!

I had a quick look at the propshafts. The rear has no play or funny noises that I can hear when I lock it and try and wobble it. The front wobbles in the middle where the gaiter is. Normal?

The front UJ looks brand new. It's still very bright, the gearbox end ones look older.

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Got a couple of pics of my daft and slightly dangerous looking front spring setup.

post-38694-0-91955100-1368777963_thumb.jpg

post-38694-0-72516700-1368777979_thumb.jpg

post-38694-0-87884700-1368777996_thumb.jpg

And also found a pic which I forgot to upload earlier. This was in the rear diff when I got the truck!

I've seen nicer looking stuff come out of a babies nose!

post-38694-0-71735300-1368778073_thumb.jpg

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Those are parabolloks....... but one seems to have been warped at some point, change them.

G

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I'm surprised about that, I thought paras were a bit taller. These could be totally worn out though, and the ride is awful. I think ill just go for standard types as paras are very expensive over here.

I'm thinking removing 2-3 leaves from standard 109 fronts will do the trick.

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I'm thinking removing 2-3 leaves from standard 109 fronts will do the trick.

After you do that, have a read of the axle wrap/tramp thread. Those front paras appear to have deformed due to axle wrap and that incident may also have caused the front UJ and yokes to fail, hence the new one.What are your front shocker bodies like? have they been bashed up by the swivel ball flanges? I'd imagine with the springs deformed like that, the diff pinion and castor angle would be all wrong and aside from heavy steering, could cause vibration. When correctly set up, the front UJ on a Stage One should be almost straight, with the pinion tilted up, pointing at the transfercase.If after you have fitted standard springs, the pinion is parrallel with the ground, it usually indicates that the front axle assembly has been swapped for a regular 4 or 6 cyl series 3 front end. Also check that the UJ's on both front and rear propshafts are in phase (parrallel) with each other. Photo of complete front propshaft if you have one?

Your present rear springs, having multiple thin leaves, once cleaned up and tuned to your load carrying requirements, will give better offroad articulation than springs with less but thicker leaves.

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The slip joint (the telescoping section of the prop shafts) should not wobble, but as the splines wear with age, a tiny amount of wobble creeps in. If it's only just perceptible, then I'd replace the UJs and just live with it, but if there is noticeable rotational play in the joint or more than about 1/2mm of flex, then it's shot.

Those front parabolics are scrap, too, and because they will be setting the axle at a different angle, the castor will be affected, meaning that the steering and handling will be adversely affected (by the look of it, the castor angle has been increased, which will at least have the less worrisome effect of increasing dynamic stability and merely making steering heavier than it would normally be). However, if the springs are uneven left and right, it will likely be causing tracking issues and will certainly have uneven responses over bumps and under braking. It's a fairly urgent job, I'm afraid. One more thing - as already mentioned, the incident that damaged the spring could also be responsible for your prop damage. The change in the axle angle, dropping the diff nose lower, will also be upsetting the prop shaft UJ geometry now, causing vibration.

There are numerous brands of parabolic springs, and they are not all equal! It's very much a case of "you get what you pay for", and these would have been cheap. Heystee and Rocky Mountain are two respected brands, with Heystee being the best but also very dear. I added a third leaf to my Heystee springs to help with the extra weight of my 109 but also to prevent what you are suffering now that I have disc brakes. I still get axle wrap, which is why I was exploring options to control it in another thread.

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So I purchased some replacement springs for Hercules on the weekend. Paid $60 for them so I cant be too unhappy! They were in typical condition, with surface rust and leaves rusted together but leaves were still in good condition thickness wise. (Sorry no pics!

Had a couple of goes at bouncing them, absolutely NO movement.

I got them home, then went out to Mitre 10 and bought a wire wheel. Stopped past work and grabbed a high speed drill, dust mask and earmuffs. Spent all afternoon going over them with the wire wheel on the outside.

Then I grabbed my cold chisel and club hammer and whacked the locating dowels off to get the leaves apart. More wire wheel action ensued. I've opted to run with just one overload spring on the front making the total an 8 leaf pack.

Ended up looking like this

post-38694-0-34896200-1369028256_thumb.jpg

post-38694-0-92868700-1369028322_thumb.jpg

Soaked both spring packs in penetrating oil and had another go at bouncing them. Must have flexed them a good 30-40mm id guess (Hard to be accurate when your standing on top of them!)

Also, the damn spring bushings are stuck solid in their holes. Need to get the hacksaw out at some stage and have a crack.

I tried to get some propshaft photos, don't know how useful they'll be!

Front

post-38694-0-03126200-1369028492_thumb.jpg

post-38694-0-30305800-1369028505_thumb.jpg

Rear

post-38694-0-50942800-1369028541_thumb.jpg

Josh

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I'm learning a lot following your exploits! Especially about the springs. I believe mine are bog-standard and the articulation is impressive. My gripe is that the rear sits a bit low, despite being quite firm. In the old days we would have taken the leaves off and had them reset but I can't find anyone local to do that now. I've often thought part worn springs give the best ride, at the cost of a little height. I had thought parabolics might be an option one day but yours is one of a few negative stories I've come across. Good score on those other springs.

On another point - I do a lot of river work and once had a Land Rover which excelled at turning diff and gearbox oil into mayonnaise. Looks like the previous owner of Hercules wasn't scared of water. I'm sure you've checked all your transmission oil but don't forget your swivels and wheel bearings. Condensation in the hubs can cause pitting on the wheel bearings, which wears those bearings out amazingly quickly. I speak from sore-wallet experience...

Don

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Thanks haha! To be honest, I may sound like I know what I'm doing.. But it's all thanks to the forum! The spring refurb technique I used was off a thread on this forum that I found on google. It's transformed the springs into something that could be used as viable suspension parts! :D

I'm hopeful that the articulation is as good I've heard, I'm itching to do some decent offroad stuff!

I'm not expecting anything like my old Mazda bounty but I've seen some pretty good pics in the 'net which excite me. (I know I know!)

It's a bugger your such a trek away from me, I have a guy who breaks landys just outside of Christchurch and he had about 30 pairs of rear springs for 109s! Some looked brand new.

I looked at parabolics also, but the cost of purchase put me off let alone shipping the things out here which would have been just as much $$$.

My swivels and associated parts all look in good nick, the balls are VERY shiny so no worries there (yet). I did find a couple of lead weight things were missing off the front right wheel which could leave it out of balance. A trip to Tonys will sort that.

Still searching for a roof though, makes me wish there was an easy way to get one from the UK haha would be cheaper than our prices! Don't get me wrong, I LOVE New Zealand but landy bits are SO expensive!!

Josh

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Propshaft U joint phasing and front pinion angle appear to be correct.

Check transfercase oil for aluminium shavings. Sometimes one of the bolts that hold the two halves of the centre diff together work loose and machines its way out the back of the speedo drive housing. A ticking noise is evident before the whole shebang locks up and puts you through the windscreen. Yeah, been there.

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The front prop looks like it has a double Cardan joint at the gear box end, and these are hard to service. If the ball and socket between the two UJ sections of the joint wear, it causes bad vibration as the two UJs conflict with each other rather than support eachother.

You need to drain all the oil from every part of the vehicle, run for 100 miles with new, and flush it again to get rid of that water contamination - it won;y only be in the rear diff, and a single swap of oil won't get it all out. Sorry: $$$.

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Looks like new UJs to me :)

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Still searching for a roof though, makes me wish there was an easy way to get one from the UK haha would be cheaper than our prices! Don't get me wrong, I LOVE New Zealand but landy bits are SO expensive!!

Josh

I've never had much trouble sourcing cheapish parts in New Zealand, though sometimes patience helps. Have you tried Mamaku 4WD Limited or Landy Heaven (near Napier)? Prices vary like crazy but both have been very helpful in the past.

Ironically, I had a near new set of 109 springs and sold them on Trade Me. That was before I had my own shed to fill with junk...

Don

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Vibration sorted, it kinda just disappeared.

Does anyone have an intimate knowledge of how the difflock system works on a stage 1?

Mine is doing some strange stuff. Basically the light wont go off. As soon as I start the truck its on, and only switches off when the truck does.

Checked the vacuum fittings and pipes at both the switch and the actuator thing on the t/box, and they blow/suck strongly.

Checked the electrical connections too and they are solid + clean, and the light bulb housing area seems OK.

How does the electrical system work on this? Is the lamp illuminated by earthing? Do I maybe have a wire chafing that I cant see which is causing the light to constantly glow?

Surely the light cant be right... if it is, then ive been driving in difflock all day everyday including a 400km trip at 100kmh plus! Surely it would have gone bang by now.

I eagerly await your replies. This one has me stumped!

Josh

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The light is run by the switch you will have seen on the back of the vacuum actuator housing. The rod in the actuator has a groove cut in it and the switch is simply a reed type. I can remember the specific way round but lets say when the rod moves the tip of the rod drops into the groove, contact is made and the light goes on. Quite often the switch can be set at the incorrect depth to the rod so it sends false signals.

To set it up properly you need to:

1. Unscrew the switch from the housing collecting any shim washers that come off. I'd clean the switch and test it with a battery and multimeter to make sure it is working properly.

2. Start the engine and move the vaccuum control valve in the cab into the UP position.

3. Make sure the electric leads are connected to the switch (Dumb but its worth mentioning.)

4. Screw the electric switch back into the hole until contact is made and the light comes on then add another half turn.

5. Measure the gap between the switch body and the actuator housing and you have the shim pack your supposed to add. Ahem..you did buy more shims didn't you? Part #s 0.127mm is 273595 & 0.508mm is 3609.

6. Dismantle and reassemble with the shims in place.

Of course if you don't have just the right shims you could try winging it by cleaning everything thoroughly and using thread lock.

You'll also want to make sure the actuator is working properly by pulling up on the knob, rolling forward a bit and then the usual sheck to make sure that the diff has locked. A faulty actuator that is sticky or has a duff diaphragm means you may be stuck in diff lock regardless of what you do with your knob.

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Thanks for the reply!

Err, now what was the usual check for a locked diff again..? :D

And when you say the rod on actuator, is the actustor assembly supposed to move in some way when the knob is pulled out to engage diff lock? When pulled the knob, nothing moved on actuator.

I probably should have mentioned that I have almost no idea about what I'm trying to repair so may need dummy language answers! :D

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