Is summat amiss or am i jumping the gun?

[Bingy]

So i have finally done all the MS Install.

Powered up, fuel pump runs.

Did as Nige suggested in an earlier thread and put two fuel filters on.

The proper Range rover metal one on the inlet and a clear one on the return to the tank.

Petrol flows in abundance back to the tank

Good start.

Next Cranking over with a spark plug in no 1 Ht Lead reveals 2 sparks close ish together, followed by a gap and then another 2.

Getting warmer

All New NGK plugs in gapped at .08

I turned the key and after a second or so the engine was almost there, but not.

I stopped and took out no1 plug to find a black marks where it looks like it has been igniting and its also a bit damp

I took the rest of the plugs out and these look just the same.

I treid again, same thing.

Nearly but not quite

As its a new engine, i don't want to be turning over and over without any oil getting round as i haven't had time to fit the rad and oil cooler yet,

i just did a hose bypass instead.

I also fitted an oil pressure sensor and gauge to monitor the oil.

HOWEVER,

Even though its an optional extra, i haven't fitted the PWM valve.

I do have one, i'm waiting for Nige to work his magic manufacturing some up whizzy bracketery thing up for the 4.6. Plenum

( No Nige this aint a dig at you!)

I just thought it would start, or even splutter into life without one

So am i jumping the gun or is summat amiss that i need to do

I want to see if my baby will go

I have read a few threads prior to fitting these valves saying that the engines were a bugger to get running in the earlier days of MS without them

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Load ms on laptop and report back on what All the dials show.....

Common issue is vr sensor wires only run.engine one way around

N

[Bingy]

Cheers Nige,

I will report back tomorrow with a picture of dials.

Do you want it with the engine cranking at same time?

[Bowie69]

If it's a new engine, I assume you mean cam as well? How are you going to bed the cam in for 20 minutes with no radiator?

[Cynic-al]

is the pwm blanked off or just piped straight through. You really want it blanked off. Mine runs fine without one (even cold start) but I accept they are a good thing to have.

[Bingy]

Nige, screen as said

Cynic-al

Posted Today, 12:47 PM

is the pwm blanked off or just piped straight through. You really want it blanked off. Mine runs fine without one (even cold start) but I accept they are a good thing to have.

The 4.6 plenum top doesnt have a place for one. Hence Nige is now inventing something up

I hvae just left the plug there ready for it to be attached to

Bowie69

Posted Today, 07:15 AM

If it's a new engine, I assume you mean cam as well? How are you going to bed the cam in for 20 minutes with no radiator?

yes i am only too well aware of running a new cam in for 20 mins at 2000 rpm. But it needs to run first.

Dont get me wrong, i only plan on a Very short time say 5 seconds max.

Then i can rip all the ms wiring back out and wrap it all back up and ire-install it as a fully made up loom.

Then other than tuning etc i can mark it down as completed

Its just a bit easier fannying about with in the engine bay without the rad and the bodywork on

[FridgeFreezer]

It should start without PWM, blanked off, whatever... back before the days of having the right MSQ mine started & ran on the default Chevy V8 map, as have hundreds of other cars from MX5's upwards! It may be a bit lumpy, hard to start or not want to idle (all just tuning/adjustment) but it should cough into life if you've got the basics correct. VR sensor wiring would be #1, coil wiring / plug lead order is a favourite too.

[Cynic-al]

Have you got the vac pipe connected. Actually no, you'd have to be a fool to miss that one...

[Bowie69]

Yup, started and ran quite happily a Lexus V8 with a Rover map

[Chazza]

yes i am only too well aware of running a new cam in for 20 mins at 2000 rpm. But it needs to run first.

Dont get me wrong, i only plan on a Very short time say 5 seconds max.

Just cranking it will be rubbing the lube off the camshaft, and cranking-speed and idle-speed are the times when a new cam is mostly likely to start scuffing on the lifters. Fit your radiator and get the boot stuck into it early; I did mine at 2200rpm for 30 minutes. It is OK to turn it off to check things, but don't idle it at all,

Cheers Charlie

PS Don't ask me how I know any idling is bad!

[Bingy]

Update

Did as all suggested, plug leads, ignition, Vac pipe etc all correct.

Then i noticed i had put the trigger wheel on upside down

It was correctly set-up and drilled in the correct place,

but i Must have put it back on upside down

After that little mishap i tried again,

fuel pump on

crank and Bingo.

But

Its only running on four cylinders

Puzzled me a but,

1 and 5 right bank,6 and 8 left bank working

3 and 7 right bank and 2 and 4 left bank not working.

at first i thought it was the injectors but before i ripped anything apart

i looked again at the wiring diagram and it turns out

All are on the same coil.

the left hand one is working but the right one isnt

The wires to the Edis are in the correct place.

Is there some way i can check that the coil and wiring are working other than by swapping them over.?

Charlie, i would love to do this in one hit, i cant even get it to fire on all cylinders yet.

I havent done any idling, cranking 4 times at max 5 seconds

As soon as its sorted im going to rip the inlet off and have a look at the cam and followers.

And at least throw a load more cam lube all over the internals

before i think about getting it going to run the cam in (or whats left of it)

[TheRecklessEngineer]

If it's an entire coil pack that's dead, it's normally the +12V feed.

Both coils on one pack don't die at once. Well, it's more likely to be the above anyway - check you've got +12V to the right pin at the coil pack.

[Bingy]

Thanks for the swift reply.

I ll report back tomorrow

cheers

[Chazza]

Charlie, i would love to do this in one hit, i cant even get it to fire on all cylinders yet.

I havent done any idling, cranking 4 times at max 5 seconds

As soon as its sorted im going to rip the inlet off and have a look at the cam and followers.

And at least throw a load more cam lube all over the internals

before i think about getting it going to run the cam in (or whats left of it)

20 seconds should be OK, as long as you can get the oil being thrown up from the crank as soon as you can,

Cheers Charlie

[Bingy]

Repoting back.

The three wires that go to the coil were checked.

Ignition on middle wire 12v

Cranking both coil wires were 3.2v

Ht lead in Sparking ok.

So i swapped the coils over and still the same.

So that rules out the ignition/coils.

Found that i have a local landrover breakers in same town

with a large set of parts for Range Rover P38 and Disco 2

They have a full set of injectors for me

But i went to pick them up this morning and they said that

they needed to go on the injector checking cleaning machine.

The guy that did this didnt work sat,

So i will be picking them up monday Lunchtime

Fingers crossed

[Cynic-al]

I've had the pins corrode on the injectors, I know it sounds awfully crude and not great for their health but I've tested them before by pushing the hose pipe on the end and applying 12v. If your replacing them might be worth trying on the old ones as atleast then you'll know if that was the fault.

Not sure why you think it's the injectors when half your plugs arn't sparking though? Have I missed something?

Also worth making sure you test voltages whilst things are under load, I've found myself chasing around in circles as a bad connection has shown a good voltage until the load is on.

[Bingy]

I've had the pins corrode on the injectors, I know it sounds awfully crude and not great for their health but I've tested them before by pushing the hose pipe on the end and applying 12v. If your replacing them might be worth trying on the old ones as atleast then you'll know if that was the fault.

Not sure why you think it's the injectors when half your plugs arn't sparking though? Have I missed something?

Also worth making sure you test voltages whilst things are under load, I've found myself chasing around in circles as a bad connection has shown a good voltage until the load is on.

Having tested the voltages on both sets of coils, both on the 12v ignition side and from the Edis unit, all came up correct.

So i swapped the coils over, so the faulty coils were now firing the spark plugs that was previously,

and the ones that were firing were now on the bad coils.

The result was no difference, despite putting spark plugs in leads and making sure that they were sparking.

The same thing was happening. The engine was still running lumpy on the same cylinders as before.

I grabbed the exhaust headers from each cylinder to check which had been firing and which wasnt

Because its only firing on 4 it doesnt want to run long enough for me to try to do anything with it.

If the injectors that i am getting have been cleaned and checked, at least this rules out another problem.

Although the ones that are in are supposed to have been done as well.

I am going to replace the full set whilst i have the plenum etc off

I did think about testing the injectors, but i wasnt sure how to.

I did think about removing the fuel rail testing 1 injector at a time and i was going to use petrol not water.

thanks for the tip its a bit safer that way.

[Cynic-al]

I've dont it with plastic cups under the injectors too but you need a lot of hands and slack in the cables and pipes.

Forgive me for being thick but have you seen all the plugs make a spark then?

I did read your build thread but I can't remember. Which injectors did you have? You probably already know this but The earlier ones need a resistor pack?

How have you wired the two injector banks? Do the ones that arn't firing correspond to one of the banks? I know it probably not going to be as clean as that because of how they work but worth checking for the time it takes

[Bingy]

Cynic-al, thanks for tryng to help

Yes i have seen all the plugs spark.

The injectors i have in are for a 1998 p38.

Black with a small greeny blue band around the neck.

No i didnt know i needed a resistor pack.

Do i need some for these?

How many and where do they go if i need them?

two from each bank are firing and two are not.

1 (coil A) and 3 (coil c) wired together. (injectors 1)

5 (coil B) and 7 (coil d) wired together (injectors 1)

2 (coil C) and 4 (coil D) wired together (injectors 2)

6 (coil A) and 8 (coil B) wired together (injectors 2)

These all run back to the ms relay board and are placed into the corresponding holes

Ones on coils A and B Fire 1, 5, 6, 8.

Ones on coils C and D dont fire. 2, 3, 4, 7.

Is there a safe way of checking the amount of current from the output of the coils?

I have seen them all spark, but is the spark big enough? Is the inside of the coils faulty?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Those Injectors are a la hotwire, and you don't therefore need the horrible flapper injector pack

If it runs, but only on one coil pack then its nearlty there and something siomples, I would say wiring ?

For a entire coil pack to be "Down", and yet the other one ok, you have done the obvoiys and swapped packs over, so it defo the dodgy side and not the ignitioon leads or coil pack itself.

So, on the side that is not working I would suggest

1. Check the pins are fully engaged into the power plug housing and not pushed back so not making proper contact

2. You have 4 x outputs on the ECU D37 plug, the good news is that the ECU is firing on both banks of wires, but I would do a double check on the Slate and greens - have you go all four wires coming into 1 wire, then repliting into 2 wires and the wires on pins 32 and 33, and similaraly on pins 34 and 35, two wires slate and red, both joining up to one wire then splitting into 4 wires ?

I feel the above No 2 is where I would look with he issues you have and where I would think there is a problem, if you have power to the plug then its as if the 8 x signals are not getting to the coils, and although its one COIL thats down it invloves BOTH banks of wiring.

3. Do a fuel pressure test, you need 30 +/- PSI, less can cause all sorts

4. Daft and I could think of any muppet who could do it - <cough> are the fuel lines wired right way around / as it the pump ?

I'll continue to have a think, but report back on the above

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

two from each bank are firing and two are not.

1 (coil A) and 3 (coil c) wired together. (injectors 1)

5 (coil B) and 7 (coil d) wired together (injectors 1)

2 (coil C) and 4 (coil D) wired together (injectors 2)

6 (coil A) and 8 (coil B) wired together (injectors 2)

Can you clarify which of these are firing and which are not? Very unlikely for all 4 injectors to go faulty at once, unless it's a common problem either with the wiring (does one wire feed all the non-firing ones) or a channel down on the MS (rare but possible). Injector pins do corrode but rarely in a neat way (one entire bank dead, the other fine).

From experience, 99% of all MS faults are in the wiring or plumbing, especially if it's not run before with that setup.

[Bingy]

two from each bank are firing and two are not.

1 (coil A) and 3 (coil c) wired together. (injectors 1)

5 (coil B) and 7 (coil d) wired together (injectors 1)

2 (coil C) and 4 (coil D) wired together (injectors 2)

6 (coil A) and 8 (coil B) wired together (injectors 2)

Ones on coils A and B Fire 1, 5, 6, 8.

Ones on coils C and D dont fire. 2, 3, 4, 7.

Reporting back Sirs

Starting with the injectors.

All cleaned and all squirt off the car on a spare battery

Fuel

Goes from pump, through landrover metal filter,

Into fuel rail passing the injectors to regulator

Goes through regulator into a clear second filter into tank return.

II can see the petrol pumping through the clear filter towards the retun on tank

Pressure is 35 psi, ignition on not cranking.

Injector wiring

Two positives per side from the relay board Ignition to injctors then piggy back to second injector

like so

1 wire goes from relay board Ignition terminal to 1 then 3

1 wire goes from relay board Ignition terminal to 5 then 7

1 wire goes from relay board Ignition terminal to 2 then 4

1 wire goes from relay board Ignition terminal to 6 then 8

Negative side

Injectors 1 on MS board

1 wire goes from relay board to 1 then 3

1 wire goes from relay board to 5 then 7

Injectors 2 on MS board

1 wire goes from relay board to 2 then 4

1 wire goes from relay board to 6 then 8

All have been checked for continuity wire by wire this afternoon all correct.

Ignition wires on Edis have been checked for continuity this afternoon all correct.

Coil sensor wires have all been checked for continiuity this afternonn all correct

I even paistaikingly checked all 37 wires for continuity on the link from the MS board to the Relay board

All spark plugs have been removed and cleaned.

All HT leads have been checked

Spark plugs placed in leads right bank first led on top of rocker cover. all 4 fire

Spark plugs placed in left hand bank on top of rocker cover all 4 fire

Any more suggestions

[Cynic-al]

You could try a plastic cup under each injector just to check they're all squirting fuel when connected to the megasquirt.

Have you checked tdc is right with something in the plug hole. And the trigger wheel is definitely right and all the valves are opening and closing. Are all the holes plugged in the plenum so there are no air leaks. Do you get an rpm on the laptop when you crank and does the manifold pressure change? Guess its difficult to check the timing when it won't run but there is an option to correct it in the settings. Guess you could try a different map? We're you able to see if the firing order was right whilst the plugs were out?

Guess its difficult when the engine has never run.

You passed the limit of my knowledge a long time ago

[dirtydiesel]

Have you compression tested the cylinders that won't fire?

[Chazza]

Irritating question - Is the camshaft timed properly?