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Been given an old Warn winch that came off an old 413 Zuk 7 or 8000lb unit that only needs a new solenoid to run...... will know more when I get home   

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I’d have the rear winch mounted mainly for pulling backwards in that case.... with an option to route the rope back over the body up to the top corners of the cab. Will Warne had a neat loop in each top corner above the cab. Obviously big enough for the hook to go through, they joined I think the backstay and the main hoop. 

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I used an 8000lb winch on the front of 45 at Ladoga so that would be perfect. The ibex has a centre mounted 9000lb running through the vector system (worth looking at) to both rear and front.

Mike

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Posted (edited)

LRF that is what I was thinking, mounting it just infront of the rear hook with a roller fairlead, above  the hook and use the shock brace bar to mount another roller fairlead above the winch and put some pipe (or similar style) fairleads in each corner of the B pillar and either make all the fairleads able to fit the hook or do some sort of simple release for the hook so I can thread the end of the line through 

Mike I'm surprised that was all you were running, the vid's of that event are serious winch comp stuff.... I've never heard of a vector system is this where you give it enough length between the last failead and the drum that it self spools, this is what I'm trying to with the front winch

The front winch is going to be rather large, both in width of the PTO unit and the double electric drive and toothed belt setup going up and forward above it. trying to run this unit as a rear mount would be a  bit of a sqweeze but not impossible, the reasons I want it upfront is part of our winch challenge is winch walls so I want a forward weight bias I'm aiming at about 60-65% forward to help with climbing.... the second reason is in a comp if I brake the line behind the front fairlead in a stage you'd give up lol having  the motor between us is a real space challenge adding a winch line either a tube that is an A$$ to thread or a heap of fairleads and have to pull covers and climb around hot stuff..... doing this in a bog or under muddy water just an't gona happen lol ..... where as with the winch mounted infront of the motor I won't have any hot areas or moving parts of the motor to work around, the bonnet I can lean up against the cab and I have one fairlead to fit it through... I might even be able to do it by braille in muddy water lol 

I've done a few mid mount winches and used them for a while now and I always set them up so that I could either pull out a bite or pull the rear pully out and winch a 2 to 1 pull, but the reality is in all the yrs I've been 4wd'ing I'be only ever used this a couple of times...... if its dodgy enough you don't want to winch forward, your the first truck in and you should have walked it first lol but there is someone behind you who can snatch you or winch you back 

My thinking is this.....For competition  I'm building the truck so it can drive or launch at alot of the stuff others are winching on, this means I'm going to end up in places I might not like lol or roll/crash if I've got a winch that can put me back on my wheels I loose time on one stage instead of a DNF and any stages I manage to drive I make a big win on the times 

Edited by De Ranged
grama my bad

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he Ibex Vector system uses a mid-mounted winch, facing rear. The rope then goes backwards to the rear of the car, round a pulley and then out of the front of the car in the 'normal' fashion. That way you can use the single winch at either end of the car. 

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Regarding self spooling - I looked at this in the past for a centre mounted rear winch with a rear fairlead on a 90. To get the correct fleet angle (technical term :i-m_so_happy:) I think the winch had to be something like 15 feet from the fairlead! :D:D

 

If you search the forum for "fleet angle" there are a few references to enjoy.....

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On 4/29/2019 at 1:55 PM, De Ranged said:

Gidday Guys 

I'm after some input from some of the English/Euro winch comp guys......  I intend to use this for winch comps here in NZ, more for the teams events than the full on winch comp's as they are more about the fun of it than the competitive side 

Now our winch comp stuff is all about dragging yourself through or up stuff here, there isn't much of the "use the winch to traverse" stuff that I've seen on UTube so up front I plan on running a twin electric motor driven pto winch (still working on design and parts list lol) 

But what I'm thinking about is a second rear/mid mounted small electric winch, say a 5000lb... enough that it could pull it back onto its wheels in the case of a roll over or using a block drag its self backwards..... I just don't know if its worthwhile, next what size..... is there a big/small loss of pulling power due to friction pulling around fairleads on the corners of the cage ?  What sort of fairleads are you guys running etc 

 

Hi mate. 

I co-drive (Winch bitch) in Ultra 4, so I may be of use. 

What we find we most commonly use (other than forward) is a direct backwards pull. But in certain situations we use the cage to pull sideways from near the main hoop etc. 

As a result we design the frames to incorporate strategic tubes and tube loops to throw the hook through and run round corners as rigging up pulleys takes too much time*. That is most commonly when winch ropes fail, so there must be a noticable increase in drag when pulling round the tube, but due to the spec of both the winch and the rope it is relatively uncommon these days. I'd definitely recommend over speccing both the winch and the rope here. 

With that setup we never really opt for an additional center winch. The additional weight and most importantly space penalty isn't worth it.

 

*I won't teach granny to suck eggs about required structure and surface smoothness*

 

It's nice to see some actual design time in your bracketry too!

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2 hours ago, bishbosh said:

Regarding self spooling - I looked at this in the past for a centre mounted rear winch with a rear fairlead on a 90. To get the correct fleet angle (technical term :i-m_so_happy:) I think the winch had to be something like 15 feet from the fairlead! :D:D

 

If you search the forum for "fleet angle" there are a few references to enjoy.....

I was quoted 1.2m which is a little less than mine. However mine spools on and off with no problem (just as well as the winch is hidden under the second row seats). 

As Ross says mid mount winch facing backwards round a pulley in the rear crossmember (foers use a snatch block but I wanted a fixed pulley). From there to another pulley mounted in the chassis, then through a tube to the front. So a slightly offset single line pull at the front and in my case a snatch block is added at the back for a double line rear pull. There are various other funky things you can do with it for instance cable car and side pull. It's a good system but not best suited for comps.

Mike

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Thanks Bisbosh I'll have a search tonight, I didn't know the term for it...... here most people seem to think 1.1m is the magic number, My thinking is based on using 9-32mm wire rope for logging. The shape of the wire will help it lay (why I have wire on my club toy because the guy who built it set it up so it can't be seen).... plasma crosses over its self alot easier because it doesn't have the same form, the deal for me is to reduce the severity of the bunching and I always build my winches so they can be seen. this one is going to be a bugger down infront of the motor but a good trick i found so long as your clear of hot air is a reversing cam and screen and I may have to set one up with the front winch 

Mikey thanks for the complement lol thats just me I over think every thing I do on my stuff even simple tabs, but just for the books I'm not a granny I'm a sort of grandad to one of my foster boys lol. I'd love to do what you guys have done with running around the cage but.... the whole idea for this truck is to have it look like a series landy and that front end isn't going to allow me to do that. As for overkill I agree the rope is going to be 12mm plasma and the winch is a Toyota 70 series pto winch with a taller drum (to deal with the bunching) air ram on the dog clutch for free spool, I will be running the worm gear so no need of a brake (I have a winch that was setup for competition that has steel worm gears and reinforced end plates on worm gear shaft to stop it screwing the shaft past the gear, this will be driven by a wide toothed belt assembly that I can change the gearsets to match conditions, some of our comps are bonnet deep thick mud some are greasy hills, the belt will run to a twin 12v motor set that will be run by a control box so I can run 12V or 24V and series or parallel on the motors and motors and belt box will be piped into the air system so I have positive pressure to stop/limit the mud getting into them....... mmmm did I mention I over think things lol and yes this is kinda the other way from the rest of the truck which is about light weight minimal, then I have a monster of a winch lol my goal is to give the god winch boys a run for there money

Mike thats the common theme over here I prefer rollers as I've seen major dramas with tubes that have worn and catch/cut the rope.... most of the central N island is pumice and that stuff wears at everything!  Tell me have you had any issues with the tube filling with mud and making it real hard to pull out on free spool ? 

 

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I run plasma on mine so it pretty much fills the tube. TSD's ibex has been on the road a lot longer than mine. Tube wear doesn't seem to be a problem but it's at least 2mm wall probably 3mm. He has had one or two issues with mud in the tube but only when left to dry for a few weeks :ph34r:. The tube run on mine is quite long (118" wheelbase) so freespool doesn't work that well anyway but it's fine winching out if a little slower.

Mike

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Just a quick one on running through tube. It works fine for casual use, we ran it for 1 season on the Tomcat and it really affected the drag on freespool, so much so that I had to get james to tap out a lot of the time. It also packs with mud if you're ploughing dirt banks on approach, something to consider. 

If you keep it as straight as possible it would probably be fine. bends here are not so good purely because of the amount of contact between rope and the tube side.

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The ibex tube is straight which will help. I agree that freespool is compromised a little.

Mike

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Thanks guys you've backed up what I've seen here in NZ, most run the pulley and fairleads for the reasons you've stated 

Nearly finished the rear battery box, and I was looking at it thinking that the front winch is going to be heavy enough by its self up front, maybe I should put both batteries in the back so ......

60549575_639500143143719_742433149207707

Bugger!..... if only I'd thought of this a bit sooner hmmmm might have to tweek things lol 

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And the answer, I kept looking at the X member and I just don't see a twisting load so .......  I carved out a bit and replaced it with a 6mm flat so it should still have plenty of strength in compression and tension ( a hit on the B pillar) 

A whole lot of holes later we have 

60681703_641747139585686_162949598491862

And all finished with the batteries in 

61127300_642623736164693_26669740643036660909662_642624246164642_317993233786129

Now onto the shocks, bumps and maybe mount the rear winch

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Been playing around with ideas on how to mount the leaf spring so it can track with the axle as it articulates.... the bearinged shackles were a disappointment the spring pulled sideways and didn't twist like I thought it would... the previous spring clamp worked because with the plastic between the leaves it allowed the leaves to rotate left and right around the two rear bolts and the front two (infront of the spring) just kept pressure on  

DSCF2447.jpg

I built the cage slightly wider to allow an easy fit lol bit of luck that 

I'm thinking this time around I build a rubber mount or something silly as I think long term the above will not last 

So the idea at this stage is to capture the spring assembly in a box at the end.... with a pin through it to lock the leaves in.... the front will have either a rubber barrel mount to the chassis or a ball joint 

Then at the rear about where the rear mount bolts are I will have a pad on the chassis that takes the wait of the spring pushing up.... yes I know classic 1/4 elliptical and I don't like that free drop setup.... so what I was thinking is curve the chassis pad a bit to each side so as it swings left and right to follow the rear axle as it articulates it also allows it to tilt to match the angle of the axle

Now to stop the spring falling away from the body I was thinking of another rubber or balljoint mounted into the chassis just above the pad with arms tying it to the box that holds the end of the spring 

If I can get the geometry right then I could possibly get away with a hinge angled up at the rear so as it swings it tracks the axle mount...... the rubber is easier because it deals with some miss alignment 

Any thoughts ? or am I just overthinking this lol

 

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I'm not sure you will gain anything with the additional complexity of the necessary linkages and moving parts needed for the spring to track the axle compared to just having a slipper pad on top of the axle where the spring bears on it and let it rub away to it's hearts desire. You could trap it in a box section wider than the spring but it wouldn't achieve anything advantageous either.

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The gain is only in maintenance and life span of the springs..... but if I do a plastic rub pad on the bottom on the spring mount that should allow enough movement and act as a sacrificial.....   lol KISS something I struggle with 

Cheers LRF  

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, De Ranged said:

The gain is only in maintenance and life span of the springs..... but if I do a plastic rub pad on the bottom on the spring mount that should allow enough movement and act as a sacrificial.....   lol KISS something I struggle with 

Cheers LRF  

 

I think you want something hard so it doesn't try and bind up on you.  Maybe a bit of leaf spring heated, tempered and arched up the way along the top of the axle tube where the spring rubs cunningly curved to match the arc of the axle against the spring would be sufficiently complicated to amuse you yet simple enough to be reliable?
All my truck rear bogies just have the ends of the springs rubbing on a plate on the axles.

Edited by Jamie_grieve

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managed a bit more

Rear shocks are in 

62527084_655210601572673_75898411492048862522820_655210754905991_129020697312755

62536526_655211504905916_630210309507776

Flexed it out to check clearance and at full flex I can still fit a 37" tyre in and clear the capping 

The shock brace is a bit of overkill but I'm going to mount a fairlead onto this so I can pull the winch rope up through this and run it out the the top corners of the B pillar 

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Fished out the little winch I got and mounted that up 

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I'm going to fit 2 fairleads one up this side of the shock brace bar and another above the recovery hook I want them both with a wide mouth so I can feed the hook through them so I can use the winch out the back or up to the B pillar.... once I've sorted the fairleads I'll add some more tube in to support them and tie in the winch a bit stronger 

Decided to do something a little different with the fairleads lol I've bought a brand new 4wd winch fairlead but its heavy and I was going to have to modify it so it has a wider gap for the hook so I thought I'd see if I could be creative lol so I got some UHMWPE 70mm rod 

64871837_655212958239104_117454018383655

The guys at the plastics place down the road were dubious about being able to bend it tight enough..... but they didn't say it wouldn't lol so I figured I'll give it a go 

So I've taken the sides off and then cut it in half, plan is mount it with the curved face in so I have a radius for the rope to run on and clamp it in a steel bolt together channel 

62502527_655213084905758_116739517502717

did a test piece using a heat gun and just trying to bend the offcut around the die on the bench its cool stuff to play with when it goes clear its ready to bend, but I very quickly found a point where it just wasn't willing to bend anymore and wants to buckle up.... I also learned I'm going to need alot more heat than a heat gun if I plan on bending the cut pieces 

So l'm planing on using the shop diesel heater to provide the heat..... and make up a bending jig that will contain it and force the bend that I can leave it in to cool and see if that will form it.... a bit of an interesting challenge 

 

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Looking great and really starting to come together 👍🏻 

Whats your plan for painting or costing all this lovely steel work? 

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What’s the reason for he plastic fairleads over say some stainless pipe and fittings?

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22 hours ago, Anderzander said:

Looking great and really starting to come together 👍🏻 

Whats your plan for painting or costing all this lovely steel work? 

Haven't thought too much on a colour scheme, to be honest I kinda like the "patina" of the cab but I don't know how it will look with the rest all painted up, I'm probably going to do a standard landy colour scheme and tart the cage and trick bits in possibly the same green I did the engine mounts...... as for how its coated I'll strip it right down (this will help me catch any maintenance issues with accessing bits and give me a chance to fix it prior to paint.

One thing I would have liked to keep and I agonized over the decision to weld the capping because of it is the galv but strength and weight won out so I sparked that up...... if I can find a good looking (not grey or tacky looking) Galv paint I'll keep the trim looking Landy  

12 hours ago, landroversforever said:

What’s the reason for he plastic fairleads over say some stainless pipe and fittings?

Weight is the excuse lol to be honest I like playing with the stuff its very slippery and cool challenge to form..... I was planing on doing the cage corner fairleads out of stainless pipe weld on fittings as anything else up there is going to look a bit odd 

 

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For the Galv cappings, have a look at Galvafroid I think it’s called. It’s essentially the heaviest tin of paint you’ve ever bought as it’s full of zinc. 

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