Jocklandjohn Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 I am currently wrestling with a conundrum (for which any advice is welcome from suitable experienced engineers!). If the actuators prove to be struggling with the overall weight, I was considering adding a pair of gas struts either side 1/3 way in to ease the load. I spoke with the strut suppliers/engineers and they are wary of the idea of combining both actuators and struts on the one application. Their concern was the actuator having to 'fight' against the strut to lower the roof (actuators are 800N push AND pull). My idea was to use adjustable force struts and drop the pressure until the push/pull on the struts was just enough to give the desired assistance lifting, and minimal resistance lowering. I can't see this not working, but maybe I'm missing someting in my inexperience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger110 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 I think, and i'm no expert either, that you would need the newton value of the gas ram to close it. If this is below 800 or even if it's more considering the weight of the roof contents which will ' help ' then it, as you say, it could well work or help overall by taking the strain on lifting a higher weight. Can any of the weight be shifted forward on the roof to minimise it's bearing on the actuators? I'm thinking you're talking about additional weight added to the structure as an issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Metrol sell adjustable gas struts, you fit it and then bleed off pressure until it's doing what you need, bit of a one-way deal but they work nicely: https://www.metrol.com/ I'd imagine a gas strut that takes some of the load would be helpful, then again just having decent actuators might be just as easy can you adjust angles/lengths to give mechanical advantage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, Badger110 said: I think, and i'm no expert either, that you would need the newton value of the gas ram to close it. If this is below 800 or even if it's more considering the weight of the roof contents which will ' help ' then it, as you say, it could well work or help overall by taking the strain on lifting a higher weight. Can any of the weight be shifted forward on the roof to minimise it's bearing on the actuators? I'm thinking you're talking about additional weight added to the structure as an issue Yes its the weight added to the structure. I've got the existing lifting roof, which has had added to it the hard sides and the rear section with lifting door (on gas struts). The actuators will only fit in the one spot because of internal fittings, but the bogey is that because the end of lifting section goes through an arc, the back end needs a 'lean' rearwards to end up vertical when the roof is raised. See image here: This is pushing the rear of the lifting section about 12 inches behind the actuator, and added to this is the additional metal required for the door frame, rod latch, gas struts, handles etc which all adds up PLUS the two side windows I've fitted which also add to the weight. (Although as you can see the windows are just slightly in 'front' of the actuators but still a long way back from the hinge.) 18 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: Metrol sell adjustable gas struts, you fit it and then bleed off pressure until it's doing what you need, bit of a one-way deal but they work nicely: https://www.metrol.com/ I'd imagine a gas strut that takes some of the load would be helpful, then again just having decent actuators might be just as easy can you adjust angles/lengths to give mechanical advantage? Yes I've got the gas struts for the back door from them (on and working a treat) - very helpful folks - send them a diagram and dimensions and they work out exactly where the brackets and struts should fit for best results. I may be worrying unduly here - but I'm trying to plan for a worst-case scenario and at the moment I can easily add a couple of brackets to the structure before I permanently add the sides/rear (currently still prepping them but am nearly there) so that if I DID need to put on two struts the fittings are there ready. (One other advantage of having added gas struts is if there's a problem with the linear actuators I can disconnect them and the struts will allow me to safely lower the roof without wrecking either it or me.) As for the strut suppliers fear that it may not work - I imagine its more that they like to be certain the advice they offer is 'legally' safe because if they advise on a novel application and it goes belly up they dont want to be liable, which is fair enough. Bottom line is I need to mount all the bits and try it out! Actuator supplier was confident it would be ok, he reckoned they were under-specced and could safely lift 200lbs each (rated for 180lbs each). Ideally I'd have gone for a higher N rating but these are the strongest he can obtain that are 800mm long (I'm lifting the roof exactly 740mm. ) Edited February 25, 2020 by Jocklandjohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 I think the main issue the supplier has with it is that the helper struts will be constantly trying to force against the actuator when it's closed. So if you can make the geometry so that they do nothing until the actuators have actually started moving, I don't think there should be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, elbekko said: I think the main issue the supplier has with it is that the helper struts will be constantly trying to force against the actuator when it's closed. So if you can make the geometry so that they do nothing until the actuators have actually started moving, I don't think there should be an issue. Thats an interesting observation. When the roof is lowered I have two locating metal brackets I made (male and female V 's to accurately locate the roof in the down position, mounted on the inside, one each side) as well as two heavy duty metal tie-down clips on the outside - both are directly in line with the actuators, so the top will be firmly anchored down & aligned. I suppose if the gas struts combined push/pull is say for example 50% of the actuator combined rating there's no chance of the struts overwhelming them? My thinking for installation was to get the roof up, attach the gas struts, disconnect and lower the actuators, then carefully release pressure on the struts until the roof comes down with a reasonable pull from me and can go back up again without me having to seriously strain myself. I'm imagining if I can find some sweet spot in there then I assume the actuators will be able to cope and not be over stressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 If you're not relying on the actuators to keep it closed, I don't see an issue. Did you explain the whole setup to the actuator supplier when you asked them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgo70 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 This is the first time I've seen a hard top pop up, super cool. Great job. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, elbekko said: If you're not relying on the actuators to keep it closed, I don't see an issue. Did you explain the whole setup to the actuator supplier when you asked them? Yes, they were very helpful with suggestions but after looking at pictures and my explanation they were wary of the combination. It was referred through several departments and various folks had some input and this was the response: "I have had a couple of conversations regarding your project internally. The general consensus was that we would not recommend your application to have both struts and actuators. Reason being that actuators are controlled and synchronised to stop and start as required, a strut however is in a constant push force. This means that it could compromised the integrity of the actuator, especially when pulling the application closed. Alternatively, if you do decide to trial a strut/actuator hybrid solution, we would recommend the bottom fixing being placed closer to the hinge than the top fixing." They were happy to suggest suitable kit and installation points to have a go so it wasn't an outright no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, sgo70 said: This is the first time I've seen a hard top pop up, super cool. Great job. Sean Thanks! Its been a voyage of discovery seeing how it would all work. Its almost there - have been sorting the back section and lifting door using the spare bedorom this week to escape from the snow! Gas struts fitted, rod latch and handle, neoprene seals and it whuffles up gently with minimal fuss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger110 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 2/25/2020 at 3:52 PM, Jocklandjohn said: ...and it whuffles up gently with minimal fuss! ..said the actress to the bishop 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted April 26, 2020 Author Share Posted April 26, 2020 (edited) Update on progress: Finally got the sides attached. What a bloody nightmare 6 months of messing about with them. Put them on, drill a hole, measure. Take them off. Think about stuff. Figure out where a doohickey will go, put them back on, measure, take them off. Repeat literally dozens of times. But each time inching forwards a fraction. Major nightmare was doiscovering that the van is not square - it apparently leans to the driver side! However my construction methods had deliberately built-in error correction strategies so I was able to accommodate the difference - a keen eye will notice the slight lean to one side, but tbh on a 30 year old LR I'm not really fussed about it. My partner was away for the whole of February so I took the sides and back section indoors into the hallway and spare room and so was able to comfortably (in the warm and dry) install the windows and seal them, fit the back door, stainless hinges, gas struts and rod latch and get them all working. SO basically I had all the components complete(ish). Working out where the gas struts would go was a bit of a challenge so to save me drilling holes everywhere as I 'guessed' it I decided to make a wooden jig and experimented, and it worked second try, so I was able to transfer the dimensions to the alloy and it worked beautifully. Then neoprene seals fitted and the latch adjusted to pull tight. Anyway, finally got it to the point where I thought it would all work, and the linear actuators appeared to be able to lift the combined weight (I was a bit worred about that), so went for a dry run, bolted it all together and made many holes, and it all looked pretty good. So, pulled it apart again and started assembling in earnest. I'd decided that instead of copious mastic I would seal the sections together at the rear corners and the long seal on the side of the roof with 2mm self-adhesive neoprene strip, then it would be easy to dismantle should I have to. Then simply put a thin smear of sealant down the joint onto the neoprene. And thats what I did, lots of bolts, and cursing, as the usual gremlins made their presence felt, but it all went together. Once that was done it was attach lower seals so thast whe the roof is lowered there's something to stop water blowing in and making the sides damp - water cant actually get into the vehicle because the original gasket sealing the roof is still in place, so its really only to keep the inner surface of the lifting sides dry. So now, hopefully, it is fully sealed. I took it out yesterday for a maiden voyage and got up to 60mph with no creaks, grumbles or rattles and nothing fell off. I could feel the wee bit extra weight but its not drastic, a few extra pounds pressure in the rear airbags will fix that. I'm now inside fitting the seals along the sides and back which is a bit of a faff and I'm not entirely certain how I'll do that but I have a few ideas, but good thing is I can do it inside the van in the dry so hopefully not too terrible a job - not like the winter work standing outisde with the arctic blasts rattling my underpants. Meant to add - the way to access the back is to swing away the wheel, lift the whuffling gas strutted exterior door, then open the original LR back door. And the added bonus is that when the roof is lifted the top hung exterior door allows the whole end of the lifting roof to open for fresh air and views. Edited April 26, 2020 by Jocklandjohn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 Good progress !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 That's coming along nicely! I like the opening rear door in the lifting section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted April 26, 2020 Author Share Posted April 26, 2020 1 hour ago, landroversforever said: That's coming along nicely! I like the opening rear door in the lifting section. Aye I was really pleased that worked! It was a solution to the lifting 'shell' interfering with the back door opening, and once I gave it some consideration I thought 'well might as well see if I can get it to work in the roof-up position'. Getting the angles right so the back door doesn't hit it was interesting. I'm now trying to get seals figured out so the bottom of the door seals when its lifted but also seals when lowered. Weight of the total thing is about the same as a roof rack and roof tent. A typical large tent is 80kg and the 110 roof rack around 50 or 60kg. so around 140kg. The sides and rear I've just built are 60kg and the roof 70kg so 130kg total. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 Awesome work John 👍 Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted April 27, 2020 Author Share Posted April 27, 2020 20 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said: Awesome work John 👍 Mo 🙂 Cheers Mo! Well there's now something where there was formerly nothing so.....! Challenge now is internal seals - which of necessity will need to be a wee bit heath robinsonish but will show some pics shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 (edited) Update on progress. Well I finally got all the seals fitted and working as I wanted them to. Basically on each side there's an 8' length of ply on a piano hinge that clips out of the way in the UP postion when roof is lowered, and then when roof is lifted and I want to employ them I pull a couple of sprung pins out and the two sides flip down onto neoprene seals and then a tension clip holds them in place. Rear end is a slightly larger lump of wood with an alloy skin on it that is stored up top and lifted into place (not hinged) and clipped in when required. Its got alloy on its lower face because its more exposed to weather and it also helps to make it more rigid. Now the restrictions have eased and its legal to go further afield I took it for its first test drive/overnight recently for a few days just up the road to the North Coast, although still required no-contact interactions (hardly saw anyone anyway). It was variously very cold, very windy, rather wet, then it was warm. It kept me warm and dry, no rattles or leaks, the additional weight was hardly noticeable - the 110 bowled along nicely. The ease of operation and being able to stand up in the back cooking my supper within 10 minutes of stopping is priceless! It needs a good shake-down running around for a spell to see what rattles, loosens etc but so far its looking like the various sealing methods and joint-solutions I came up with have worked, keeping driving rain out. Got some electricals to do now, and some new doors to fit when I get them painted. Edited August 4, 2020 by Jocklandjohn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Very Nice Project !!!! Well done. Looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Thanks Arjan! Bit of a protracted job, but its got there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 BTW - love the pics ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Thanks! Light was lovely in the evenings - landscape looking west is a long lens shot which does 'squish' perspective a bit (600mm) on 35mm FF camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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