Tetsu0san Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Hi all There was a thread on one of the forums where someone had had their rear crossmember replaced by a garage and within 2 years it had a big rust hole (guess what colour box it came in), and there was a sense of 'what do you expect?' in the replies. I can see a worrying trend of these threads that have 'I had a problem with XXX, replaced the thing-a-mi-jig with YYY and the problem is still there'. The problem I have is that as soon as I read them I automatically think that they have replaced the thing-a-mi-jig with a blue box item and I just think to myself 'well, there's your problem'. Is anyone else feeling as synclinal as me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Cynical, Blimey you drive a Land Rover you're bound to be lol, Seriously though I understand exactly where you're coming from John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 What really annoys me is that it seems that pattern Land Rover parts are not reliable. When you have a problem and you try to fix it you take your chance with the parts doing the job or not. I am not a mechanic by trade so I only work on cars as a little hobby but I don't think I have ever come across this on any other make of car I have worked on. Maybe I have been lucky but it seems that when you buy a part from a motor factors for say a Citroen, you fit it and forget it. Buy a part for a Land Rover from a mail order company (as motor factors don't generally stock parts) and you just have no idea if the part is actually any good. The only time I have been comfortable with buying bits is if I actually go in and speak to someone over a counter. I have bought Land Rover parts from 2 local companies and both are helpful and both give me parts that work, and more importantly the parts are what they would fit themselves. But unless you specifically order a branded part from a mail order you just have no idea what the part is going to be like. And it seems that sometimes the part just isn't worth the effort of fitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffR Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Sadly its not just Landrovers. I've numerous pattern parts for the wifes 1980s Mini that were simply rubbish. Thins like indicator flashers I buy in boxes of 10 (can't get genuine ) as they last such a short period of time. My own personal view is that sooner or later it's gonna cost some poor bugger their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Yeah, wasn't it you that bought some brake hoses that didn't have a hole down the middle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffR Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Yeah, wasn't it you that bought some brake hoses that didn't have a hole down the middle? yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Once you know that blue boxes are to be avoided the next problem becomes ensuring what your buying is genuine or oem. Besides buying from a main dealer is there another way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I always try to buy genuine land rover parts-mainly off of e-bay as I know they'll fit my 90, I will only use allmakes/Bearmach when the part I want isn't available elsewhere, I will not under any circumstances fit anything that comes in a blue box as I know I'll waste my money and my time as I do all of my own work on my truck even by buying it in the first place, I used to use many years ago when I lived up in Hampshire a place called Premier supplies(Guildford) which when you're on a limited budget-as I was and you're nieve to think the part you want being as cheap as it is will work as good as a genuine one and then you wonder why 4 weeks down the line you're again replacing the same part, causing you much frustration and spending more money that you shouldn't be doing if you saved your cash and paid out for decent parts such as a genuine bit that you need for your truck. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 ... when you're on a limited budget-as I was and you're nieve to think the part you want being as cheap as it is will work as good as a genuine one ... This is just the point. Something failing immediately, 4 weeks or even 4 months down the line is simply not acceptable. At this point the item is just not fit for purpose, but it shouldn't be that way. Regardless as to make the part should work and work to acceptable tolerances. I think most people will appreciate that if someone has repaired or replaced a part due to failure, if it immediately goes wrong again then there must be something else wrong. You shouldn't have to question the reliability of the replacement part. And you certainly shouldn't have to take pot luck on the part you buy. But as we all seem to be used to this kind of s**t being sold, when someone posts up a question as to why a problem still occurs even after fitting a brand new part we seem to take the approach that perhaps the brand new part is faulty. It should not be that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The britpart Alternator I bought in holland, on a saturday morning when the original broke did last about 2k miles. I knew it would be bad quality, but that was worse than I thought. Worst of all, it cost me about 250 euros. It did survive Ladoga, so should I complain? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 The britpart Alternator I bought in holland, on a saturday morning when the original broke did last about 2k miles. I knew it would be bad quality, but that was worse than I thought. Worst of all, it cost me about 250 euros. It did survive Ladoga, so should I complain? If that was acceptable to you then no, there is nothing to complain about. But if I were replacing an alternator with a brand new one that only lasted 2 months, I would be really p**sed off. 'G' part or no 'G' part, it should still work, and work well. But what I am eluding to is the fact that with the increase of home repairs on Land Rover's people will get a part that appears to be a good price, and it should be fit for the job. Even garages are getting cheap pattern parts and fitting them because they are the right part for the job. And then when the issue repeats itself immediately or it goes wrong again soon after, there is an intake of breath through clenched teeth and people say 'yeah, you should have got a better make part'. Me included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think defenders in particular being easy to fix is due to the bolt on/off nature of the parts and highly separated parts (think of axle casing, stub axle, bearings, hub are all separate) whereas lots of modern cars have lots of more complex, expensive and factory assembled components. Take the bearing being integral with the hub for a discovery 3, etc. Therefore with the Defender setup it's a lot easier to introduce an error into the process that can cause premature failure. I wonder how many bearing failures of Britpart bearings are due to a wrong torque or getting grit inside during assembly, etc? The part gets the blame in any case. The large market for LR parts means that you're going to get the entire spectrum of businesses from high quality to low price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 in Hampshire a place called Premier supplies(Guildford) Oh yes 'County' branded carp. We used to supply and fit that stuff and then along came Britpart which at the time seemed better quality/similar price parts. Look how thats changed as Britpart are now the pits for a lot of carp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The guys in the main dealers all run for the hills wben they see me walking through the doors, the young guy who usually gets stuck with me has learned more about a 200Tdi Discovery than he ever thought possible, but why? Simply because I cannot afford to be replacing parts frequently as even the carpest of carp is expensive here! NoI do not waste money, I buy what will fit and last, original parts did this long so half as much again is going to be more than twice the average of other suppliers pattern parts. You pays your money and all that but I don't think you have any place to complain when they do not fit/last. OEM "G" spec, altogether a whole interesting topic, I think it was Simon r who did the comparrisson on prop UJs and noted the best quality was LR and even the "G" spec things were not the same and made/branded by the same company GKN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanco Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Trouble is it is so inconsistent ..... my experience with a 300Tdi vac pump.... I looked at them all on eblag, chose the OEM one supplied from DLS, it lasted 5 months, they supplied a Britpart replacement which they say they have had no problems with (it took much longer to get the refund!) that was 8 months ago.... I have stopped expecting it to go at any minute. Also on the 110, I got replacement rear springs (mine work pretty hard with the trailer and crane almost permanently hitched up) they came in a blue box and have proved good value (18 months now). As I look sideways at the office shelf there are two 2 blue boxes there..... Td5 oil filters (not the rotary, genuine is a better fit I find); at the price and with the little spanner gizmo to get them on and off its good value, when you bear in mind the frequency with which I change the oil, I do reckon they are worth it. Elsewhere on here recently, there was a small part for an LT95 gearbox (I think) which Ian had had tested and the genuine one was a pattern part! Rather than tell stories when we get pi**ed off, a good solution would be for the mods to set up a little table where we can list all the service parts and spares in categories with counters for members to log good/ bad /broke etc.?? Then we would have some data to use, who knows.......... the manufacturers and suppliers might be interested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Seeing as I'm on this topic in another thread: Teflon swivel balls are RUBBISH! I've broken two now, a pal broke one and someone he was out with broke one on the same day. Seems to be a very strong example of a part made in the aftermarket that is not up to the job. Not suitable for heavy off road at least. Would not like to get a vehicle airborne with Teflon balls on, think both wheels would snap off! Problem is demand for them is not enough anymore so production goes down the pan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 But you also have to remember that there is a massive second hand parts market through scrap dealers or even home breakers. I would generally prefer to buy a non-moving second hand part over new, but buy a new moving part over a second hand item (unless I was desperate). I have however fitted a second hand brake vacuum pump on my old 300Tdi in the past and this was fine, but I think I would have to buy a brand new water pump if I needed one. And I certainly wouldn't fit a second hand head gasket! The other thing that I am not totally happy with are the aftermarket 'upgraded' parts, like those Teflon coated swivels. Although you are the first one I have heard of that have broken, I have purposely steered away from them (did you see what I did there) due to the Teflon wearing off and them being more rusted than an old knackered chrome one. I fitted a replacement 300Tdi head too and it was an upgraded Brazilian one. I wasn't totally convinced it was as good as the genuine one, especially as I still had some water issues, but that was a few years ago now and that Discovery has long since been sold. Still on the road too! But I just don't know what the answer is. It's harder to get new parts for older vehicles without going to pattern parts, but pattern parts can be a risk, as can second hand parts. Maybe just buying Japanese 4x4's instead might be the way forward! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Roberts Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 My wife and I both run Japanese doe daily drivers (she Shogun Mk3 3 3.5, me XTrail 2.5). Previously she had Series 2 Discover V8 - £4.5K repairs in 18 months before head gaskets went south. It had 2 steering box replacements! The first replacement lasted about a week. The replacement for that was a Range Rover P38 Country 2.5 diesel - that had about £1100 of servicing and warranty work to get through th first annual service we had with it. The trouble is with them as daily drivers is that they were so damn unreliable, and in the case of the Land Rover main dealer in Cambridge, wanted £97.50 + VAT an hour to fix the vehicle, which they frequently struggled with and to add insult to injury, thought it unrealistic for the customer to expect that they could! I love my Classic bobtail to bits - I need to - otherwise it wouldn't still be with me....but there's no way I'd run one as a daily driver. My 1979 abused 2 door was far more reliable than the Series 2 Discovery or P38 Range Rover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 That's impressive (or concerning) with the swivel how did it fail? Was it on full lock? Did the wheel clobber something? The thing with pattern parts is they are market driven, and unfortunately the market is cost driven.... with the cost being ever driven downward as most enthusiasts want cheaper parts as they are doing the work themselves and therefore are maybe not willing to pay for an official landrover branded part (IF it is available) [myself included, applies to all the vehicles I work on, VW, ford etc). I also believe that most non-manufacturer garages will be looking at costs too and profit margins... and most of their customers would not know the difference with what / where a part is made... this in turn means that LR does not see a market to supply it's official parts and withdraws it's supply chain contracts..... ever decreasing circles. Also... when a part fails... most people throw it in the bin and buy another .... legal challenges are expensive and lets be honest if you pitch up with a lump of metal that was a swivel, the first thing they will ask for is a receipt (and mine go in the bin quickly after purchase).... next they will try to say is that it was poorly installed by an unqualified professional (a garage)..... next they will try to say that you subjected it more than it was ever designed for in some extreme situation.... and if you manage to get past all that they may give you another one to have another go at .... all for the cost of £45 ish a swivel, and several hours of grief / wasted that you could have spent doing something else. I wonder what would happen in the US if a critical part failed like that? [anyone from the US on here?] The manufacturer should be brought to task, as they will still be spitting them off the production line and putting them in the market place and there could be something wrong with the steel grade, temper (or the teflon coating process changing the properties of the ball). The "blue box" company should have a presence on these forums and at least be able to defend it's self and explain .... we are after all it's more likely market place as the LR parts supplies dry up / brand lines change. I'm not advertising for some of the "small" parts manufacturers on here, but given we are very lucky to have representation from Ashcrofts, Si and Hybrid (sorry if I've missed out someone else), but these box shifters should show up once in a while and offer some guidance / a comment and be asking the pertinent questions WHY a part like that can fail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I thought teflon coated balls were fitted as standard from sometime mid nineties ? I have never heard of one breaking, but seriously, do you really expect them to survive being "airborne" ? This is more like destruction derby usage which I doubt very much was in the original design criteria in any case The aftermarket stuff that factors sell for normal cars is usually OE anyway, and the reason it is cheaper is because of the high volumes that they can move. Land Rovers are very small in numbers by comparison, and the components are usually larger too, which makes them seem expensive, and in any case, most LR owners use the specialists and generally buy on price. Pattern stuff is NEVER going to be as good. It fits, and it does the job, but legally that is all it has to do, but for how long is anyones guess. You NEVER get more for less..........just less. This is one of the reasons why Land Rovers have a reputation for being unreliable. Fit the cheapest stuff you can buy, fitted by someone who doesnt really know what they are doing, dont bother to fit it properly, dont lubricate it. Do the most stupid things imaginable with the vehicle and then expect it to last forever. I have had a lot of Land Rovers, and the amount of bodgery I have seen over the years is truly staggering, and what really amazes me, is that some of those guys out there that do this are actually PROUD of it ! A while ago I saw on Youtube some guy who had a replacement blue box wheel bearing fail and was slagging them off, but from where I am sitting, there didnt seem to be any evidence of any lube in sight, so again, what do you expect. Blue box company is a BIG company. If everyone who has a LR quickly learns not to buy this stuff, who buys it ? How do they manage to stay in business ? Some one must do, and their range is increasing all the time................... At the end of the day, should you realistically expect a £15 part to last as long as £70 one ? If you DO, then you have a lot to learn ! I DO use blue box stuff sometimes, but only if I can look at it first, or have the option of returning it without a fight, as I have found some stuff is OK, and some obviously not. It does now have a two year guarantee after all. And to be totally honest, I have not yet had any failure problems, but also i do not expect it last a long time either. You pays yer money................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Indeed just swapped Teflon balls out last night for rebuilt setup with chrome balls, noticeable loose spot when rotating knuckle around at centre, the Teflon had worn to an extent at centre that it was altering the perceived swivel preload. Clearly far too soft a material for this purpose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 On the bearing side / selection ----- > buy one from a bearing manufacturer, not a box shifter... Fag, SKF, Timkin, etc that is all they do, day in day out and they are designed to a specification .... most of the landrover part numbers are listed on the net with a big bearing manufacturers ACTUAL part number to shop direct for the item. First question when buying a bearing is "who's is it?", anything other than a known manufacturer.... shop elsewhere. A box shifter (blue or otherwise) will just be rebranding someone elses... the big names are proud of their brand, and I'm fairly confident that they won't be letting someone else box and brand them ... but then lube it too (like everything). If you think you took a shortcut in installing something.... if it should fail early don't blame the box it came in.... if you followed the LR manual to the T and used a torque wrench or set the preload etc then the manufacturer has no excuse...... ... some bits like a swivel should not fail like that on an "off-road" vehicle designed for whatever the worlds roads can throw at it.... unless you hit a rock / stump with it at high speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Both my swivel balls failed at less than 5mph. Bit of a thrashing during the day perhaps but the failure was completely free from drama, just fell off. My pals went in the Sahara, hit a big dune rather hard, bad news. Another bloke on that expedition lost one on flat gravel road but got some serious air only a few miles previous. Both those were on standard wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 You answered a question there for le Sam, I was going to ask what wheels, but I know you build from elsewhere and you run a fairly standard setup really, not sure how well those swivels would last if you were running large offset with wide tyres!!! Like a lot of things we all have to take responsibility for the ever decresing quality of our part supplies, but griping here and else where about it does not help, now sending back faulty and substandard parts is a ball ache but they need to know and physically see what the failures were and how they came to be, dash cams and video's taken during a trip where a failure occurs is hard evidence of what you were doing when it broke, and backs up the whole fit for purpose thing. I too saw the video of the lads with the wheel bearing saga, again, too many grey areas of fitting for my liking to put it solely on the bearings. How many people here can actually remember the name and what the guy looks like behind the counter of thier local main dealers??? I do, why? Because I buy stuff from them and not from Paddocks over the internet. Yes a genuine part can fail too, but it is far less likely to, but weighing up the costs of the parts is silly to think a few pounds saving over the amount of time it takes to do the jobs, my genuine seals for the timing case on my 200Tdi are €50, yes I can buy a full bottom end gasket set and have enough for fish and chips if I wanted but I don't want to be doing it again anytime soon, cheap parts = problems in the making. I recently did a piece on using a speedi-sleeve to repair a leaking steering box, no, not as a cheap skate means of repair but as an attempt to solve a simple issue with the seal land being corroded and pitted, there are no other issues with the box apart from the seal land so worth my time to find a solution, and as there are steering boxes available reconditioned but with no warranty I am not wasting €350 on that nor jumping to €550 for a new one, again, calculated risks, my risk being my €35 repair doesn't work and next step is to try the hard chroming of the seal land, but only due to the seal land, others will try to do my repair technique on a knackered worn out box and see it fail, why, because they don't know enoungh to know the rest of their box is stuffed and think the cheap speedi-sleeve was carp because it didn't seal their box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Seeing as I'm on this topic in another thread: Teflon swivel balls are RUBBISH! I've broken two now, a pal broke one and someone he was out with broke one on the same day. Seems to be a very strong example of a part made in the aftermarket that is not up to the job. Not suitable for heavy off road at least. Would not like to get a vehicle airborne with Teflon balls on, think both wheels would snap off! Problem is demand for them is not enough anymore so production goes down the pan Those balls look like they are made of cast iron, not forged or cast steel. Would you do a grinder test on a piece for us ? Short sparks=iron, longer sparks =steel.Even a whack with a hammer will tell if iron or steel. Iron will snap with little deformation. The problem with LandRovers is that many of the original components are of marginal design in the first place, but good metallurgy gives them an acceptable lifespan. Skimping on material specification and/or heat treatment is a recipe for poor service life at best, or catastrophic fatal disaster at worse. The manufacturer and supplier of those swivel balls should be drawn and quartered, never mind named and shamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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