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Rollcage/spaceframe design and ULTRA 4/MSA regulations


Lewis

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I just watched a clip from king of the valleys, I recognised redlinemikes car. Is it a contact sport?

Going back to dirtyninety's comment above, what makes a car ultra4? Is there a set of rules or quidelines or entry requirements that an ultra4 car must meet, like there is in the Baltic cup type events which define vehicles as tr1 tr2 tr3 proto etc?

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Yes there is a possibility of contact mainly in the rock sections last year kov was a MSA event so mostly challenge trucks was entering but this year MSA will not support the event so just awaiting on new regs and rules hopefully it will be under the American rules as altra4 is there creation.

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you need(ed) an msa spec cage, the rest general challenge rules for safety. When I say needed, It appears that for the king of the valleys, the MSA has pulled out of it from an insurance point of view. What this means for the future with regards of rules, no one seems to know. Sorry if that did not answer your question.

Nice build by the way, please keep the updates coming.

Daan

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The winners of KOV and KOP (not sure on the others, KOG is a event new this year) win paid transport and entry to the legendary American King of the Hammers.

I've been and spectated and pit crewed for a team at KOV. Hopefully that is where my truck shall end up.

If the MSA have pulled out, and we start using the American rules, it will make the sport a hell of a lot better.

The american regs are far far more lenient regarding cage design.

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But why would you want lenient regs regarding cage design. There strict regs for a reason, to save your life.

Lenient is probably the wrong word, more like different.

(In my view) the MSA regs were made some time ago and most of the regs are a little daft for this type of discipline.. were are not the only type of motorsport that feel this way in fact we (the offroaders) had/have it easy compared to some of the guys I know that run track events...

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I agree with mouse with the msa out the trucks will evolve to the standards of the yanks rings and them things are the formula 1 off the of road They hit can hit 100mph in the desert then be crawling the hardest rock sections with ease basically a baja rock racing hybrid.

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That may be true, but the problem we are having is that different organizers have different regulations; this means that if you plan to build a new car, what rules do you follow? In the uk, even local clubs cannot agree on one set of rules. At least the msa is connected to the FIA, so if all events worldwide would adapt these rules (like with racing and rallying or rally raid), you can build a car to that and go anywhere in the world and compete.

In my opinion, this is why any offroad sport never seems to get recognised, there just never seem to be a clear direction.

My opinion anyway.

Daan

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That may be true, but the problem we are having is that different organizers have different regulations; this means that if you plan to build a new car, what rules do you follow? In the uk, even local clubs cannot agree on one set of rules. At least the msa is connected to the FIA, so if all events worldwide would adapt these rules (like with racing and rallying or rally raid), you can build a car to that and go anywhere in the world and compete.

In my opinion, this is why any offroad sport never seems to get recognised, there just never seem to be a clear direction.

My opinion anyway.

Daan

I hope that "Ultra4 Europe" can put it all together and give us regulation that we can actually ahead too, regs suited to offroad racing.

The MSA are so out dated... they have no idea what we (as a sport) do and from what I see they don't care...

Anyway sorry for diluting the thread, post up some more photos of the build ^_^

Iwould like to see the extended radius arms

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Looking at the site ultra4racing.com/racers/rulebook it looks as though the crossover problem comes from a less defined rule set for the roll cage in ultra4. (The rest of the rules look comprehensive with specific stuff laid out and the tube thickness for different tasks is there). This allows them to start construction of the six point cage at the body capping on tube buggies.

Last I heard the MSA hadn't got a plan for vehicles where there was no original body or chassis. This shows in the UTV buggies doing MSA comp safari in 2013.

The Pirate thread talks of one continuous 'B' rear hoop (FIA MSA) being added into the ultra 4 pre-made frames. It does look feasible? But a roll bar like this serves no purpose if it doesn't terminate at a devise like a chassis? And I have to ask, are the curved rear stays reducing strength, or creating a structure that can gracefully handle end-over-end impact forces without compromising the main rear hoop?

So I can see why the MSA have a fixed and simple design that's easy to scrutineer, but I can see how the ultra4 is stronger for a bit of free thinking :)

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Wow... I have issue with some of that.. :angry2:

19.5 All vehicles, including those with doors, must have at least one side bar on each side of vehicle that will protect occupants from side impact. The sidebars must be of the same tubing material and dimensions as the main frame of the roll cage. The sidebars must be located to provide maximum protection to the occupants, and must be securely welded to the front and rear hoops of the roll cage. The location of the sidebars must not cause difficulty in entering or exiting the vehicle.

I was putting in some side bars but they will not be permanently welded to the A and B hoop as I have two bulkheads in the way...

Even in the every man challenge regs i have a problem..

27.5 The engine must be mounted at the front of the vehicle along with the primary cooling radiator.

I have just started moving my rad to the back behind that cab...

So looks like thats my "Ultra 4" days over, shame it was quite good fun

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Surely tree-sliders in roll-cage tube would fulfil the requirement if they were welded into the base of the roll cage either end. Worth looking into.>???

The sidebars must be located to provide maximum protection to the occupants

Not sure that tree-sliders (I assume you mean at door sill level) would forefill that above requirement :)

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waiting to see what happens and what other people do with this as I am sure that i could argue that my rock slider (which are part of the chassis) would count as side protection (which is what i made them for).

But they are made from 7mm wall box, not from roll cage csd tube (too weak) and the sliders are tied into the chassis by the (strengthened) out riggers. Now the front cage hoop does meet the slider but the rear hoop is connected to the top of the chassis cross member like almost all landrover truck cab roll cages.

I will carry on and make my planed cage changes and if it stands up to scrutineering then great....

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