mickeyw Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Just before Christmas 2013 we moved house, to a larger place with more space for the family, and importantly to me, a larger garage. I thought I should attempt a write up of the transition from garage to workshop. Partly I hope to provide ideas for others in future, but also to generate discussion regarding methods and materials for different aspects of process. I don't expect progress to be particularly fast, as time to do things is fairly limited. At the old place I had a brick built, flat roofed, very tightly packed single garage. This was home to my Colchester lathe, drill press, and all manner of other tools, equipment and parts. To call it a workshop would be stretching the definition of the term, as there wasn't much space to move, never mind work! Nige (HfH) has seen this and will vouch for the amount of equipment I had crammed in there, Anyway, the new place has a double garage (16'x20'), of sectional pre-cast concrete construction, with a corrugated asbestos roof. The lack of headroom means that vehicle repairs will still happen outdoors, but the additional space will be very welcome for the machinery. There is room to build a car port outside so the lack of truck-in-garage opportunity is not too great a concern. The main entrance is a powered roller door. Apart from being tediously slow in operation, it's trying to fall off the front of the building, as the timber it is attached to is pretty rotten - work will be required here. There is also a personnel door, also falling apart, so I have not attempted to open it yet - more work to do! Kitting this out as a workshop would be easy if the garage started off empty, but with all the gear I brought with me there will be no end of shuffling stuff around to enable work on different walls. This is where having an engine crane comes in handy Currently there are two fluro battens hanging from the steel roof trusses, and a double socket each side of the building, so some electrical upgrades will be necessary before I can call it a workshop, and get the lathe running. Following previous enquiries on here about insulating and damp proofing, there were mixed views as to how damp this type of building would be. In reality the concrete floor has remained dry, but the roof seems to be damp on the inside. Anything metal has been running with condensation in the recent wet weather. My appeals for insulation ideas attracted a kind offer from Mr Fridgefreezer, of some surplus 2" expanded polystyrene sheeting and plaster board, materials left over from fitting out his own inventing shed. I think there are about enough sheets to line the whole building He was also good enough to pass on a home-made polystyrene cutter, which after some initial trials I can say is going to make cutting sheets to size relatively easy. More details will follow on this part of the project. Other plans include a full rewire, with larger armoured cable (currently 2.5mm2 and will be 4mm2) from the house supply. Also a new consumer unit with separate circuits for the lathe's phase converter, wall sockets, lighting, and a dedicated socket for the welder. Plenty of wall sockets and lighting are also on the agenda. A weatherproof outside socket sounds a good idea too. Then I'd like to add a modest air ring with a few sockets around the shop, providing use of air tools at the bench or outside, blow guns for the lathe and mill (yet to move my Bridgeport in). I know Dangerous Nige linked to some nice plastic stuff a while ago, but it ain't cheap. If it comes to it I may end up using rubber hose around the walls with sockets fixed to the walls here and there. As for layout, I am thinking machinery down one side, storage shelving on the other, and work bench and tool cabinets at the end, hopefully leaving a nice working space in the middle.... maybe. I expect more ideas to pop up as time goes on, please feel free to make suggestions, or add your own experiences of products, preferred methods etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Bridgeport type machines usually best situated at 45 degrees in a corner. I'd be looking at that roof to see why it's running water as well, mine isn't. Looking forward to seeing what you get up to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 haven't looked at price but toolstation have started selling plastic air pipe stuff mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 suggestion on the shelves (worked for me, each to their own)... 8 x 4 sheets of ply, split in three (no wastage), so shelves are wide enough for good size plastic tubs at ~ 400mm wide. The bench is basically an 8 x 4 sheet, with only one shelf section cut off it (i.e. it's ~ 800mm wide). The frame (fully framed out) is 2" x 2" timber. The whole lot was given several hard coats of varnish (forget which one, but one of them is paint + oil resistant). Very nice finish, I can and do stand on the bench and shelves and have put some serious weight on them with no deformation. You can NEVER have too many double sockets, I have around 6 or 8 doubles (I forget) down my 5.5m garage. Compressed air.... the toolsation plastic stuff looks great (unfortunately I did mine in copper). Use PCL XF compressed air quick release fittings (they have a hell of a lot lower levels of resistance than the other cheapo ones) [if you use quick release] You can never have too much light (... well maybe...) .... advantage of the shelves make above the bench with a 2 x 2 frame is that you can put a 3' strip light under it and you have great lighting without glare where and when you want it. Hope it gives you ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm not a qualified electrician but will 4mm cable be enough with all those inverter run 3 phase machines? I believe that will only give you a 32amp supply, I recon you'd need 10mm cable for a 64amp supply, although you'd have to work it out properly obviously! Although I guess if they have soft start and you only use one at a time you'd be ok? It's something I'm on with myself so should be an interesting read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 If you fit an outside socket fit a switch inside the workshop to isolate it, don't want to give scrotes any assistance for breaking in PS: My dads workshop has the problem with water as does yours, been like it for 40+ years. Have also seen one where the problem was the fixings were in the valleys of the corrugations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm still using the grey plastic plumbing pipe you get at anywhere that sells It-Wickes B&Q etc. as the bar rating for it is actually higher than the blue plastic pipe that Sealey et-al sells, so for me it cost me about £25 in pipe plus fittings to do my garage from my compressor to my outlet, and so far I've not had a blow out or leak anywhere in the system. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Like this stuff? http://www.wickes.co.uk/polyplumb-barrier-coil-15x25m/invt/424994/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Ed, This is the stuff I used mate http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/424993/?source=123_75, But I'm pretty sure the stuff you linked too is the same stuff just on a roll and not in 3m lengths thats all The Sealey stuff is rated at 10 bar where as the grey plastic plumbers pipe listed above is rated for 12 bar(But it does say on the website that it's not to be used for air supplies) I did a small experiment with 2x airline fitting's and two short lengths of the pipe, as well as one of the straight connectors you get within the same product range,I connected my airline, started my 3hp compressor and walked out of my garage and closed the door, went back the next day to check if it had leaked/gone pop?, but was very surprised it was still in one piece and also hadn't leaked at all, hence why I'm still using it and it works a treat. hth John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I wonder if it's to do with how it fails? Fluid isn't compressable like a gas so they behave differently when there is a failure of the pipe. IIRC a failure with a compressed gas is more dangerous than with a liquid. Probably just to make you buy the more expensive stuff though to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I'm not sure to be honest Barry, All I know Is that I've been using the grey stuff for a while now and not one single leak or pop etc. from it, If It does go pop I'll be sure to tell people, Didn't Nige say It cost him something silly like £175 to do his garage-for a pipe that won't hold as much pressure or as big a flow to it as the grey stuff-Blimey ?, The other thing is if it does have a blow out I'll just remove the offending piece and replace it with either another length to match the previous one or just replace that section, I think the only place it would go is on one of the connectors and they're cheap enough to replace-as is the pipe. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Thats handy to know, thanks mate....~I'm just in the process of fitting out a new workshop for my Model Engineering society...will bear it in mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Ed, Have a look here mate: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=79689 John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 What I really want to do first is to insulate the walls and roof, but with so much floor space already occupied, shelving was a priority. As much as I would have loved to build some strong timber shelves, such a project would take time I don't have to spare. HfH has been speaking highly of BiGDUG's shelving units, so I had a look at what they had to offer - their prices are pretty good, and looked like an attractive time saving proposition. There is a lot of similar stuff available on that well known auction site, some is a little cheaper but didn't seem to feature a central support strut I chose 3 units, 900lg x 450dp x 1800h, each with 5 levels, capable of supporting 150kg uniformly distributed per shelf. Sounds plenty to me, even for Landy bits. Linky. The shelving arrived very quickly and only took an hour or so to assemble all 3 units and load 'em up. The component parts did seem pretty flimsy, possibly not much thicker than a bean can, but when assembled they took on a surprising degree of rigidity. Now I had some space to sort out the insulation. The concrete wall sections are 4ft wide with a vertical cast leg between each panel. The panels are held in place by several clamp plates that are secured by coach bolts through the cast legs. As the bolts had a good 10mm of thread protruding, they seemed an ideal means of fixing my insulation to the walls. Plan for fixing insulation to the wall. A trip to my local builders fixing shop yielded 100 off M8 coupling nuts (aka studding connectors, just long nuts really). The plan was to screw these onto the end of the bolts, only my plan went a little awry when I realised the bolts were in fact 5/16" UNC. Armed with the necessary tap in the chuck of a battery drill I rethreaded one end of each nut. I can't say this is a correct thing to do, but with the threads being close in pitch (not quite close enough though) I don't think I have lost too much strength. Takes a while to run through 100 of 'em... I then bought some lengths of 50x50 timber. These will be bolted to the concrete uprights. I cut the timbers to length, stood them against the nuts and marked hole positions. A 20mm hole through is big enough to clear the M8 nuts and allow for a little positional inaccuracy. Next I routed a slot through, deep enough to clear the head of the bolt and the washer. Timbers were then bolted in place. Now to cut the polystyrene boards. Measure twice, mark out, measure once more then cut. Fridge's ni-chrome wire cutter worked a treat, I just need more practice to get straighter cuts. The boards were cut to be a snug fit between the timbers, thus avoiding the need for glue of any kind. I could have sworn I took some photos of the timbers bolted up, but here is a rather carp one of timbers and polystyrene boards on the wall. By the way, the horizontal timbers are screwed through the vertical ones at mid height and ground level. As the vertical studs don't go all the way to the top of the wall, the top horizontal one is held to the concrete with Gripfill This will give a bit more to screw the plaster boards to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studmuffin Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 If you fit an outside socket fit a switch inside the workshop to isolate it, don't want to give scrotes any assistance for breaking in PS: My dads workshop has the problem with water as does yours, been like it for 40+ years. Have also seen one where the problem was the fixings were in the valleys of the corrugations. I think its a really good idea to insulate under the cement roof sheets. If poss also encapsulate the roof by lining as your roof sheets almost certainly contain chrysotile asbestos which you really don't want to disturb. If it leaks later just overclad with steel profiled sheets and flashings. They do long Tek screws to go straight through into your roof joists. Look forward to seeing the progress. Cheers Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 My nice new shelving had been in use for just a few days, when I entered the garage to find things didn't look quite how I had left them. Thoughts of WTF...... passed through my mind. Now I had not loaded these anywhere near their rated capacity, so I was greatly and unpleasantly surprised to find such a sight. I emailed the picture above to the supplier, subject line 'My new shelving last night'. I soon received an email requesting that I called them. A short discussion about how I was using them, confirming they were on a level concrete floor etc, resulted in profuse apologies and the offer of not only replacement shelves, but ones of the next grade up. So while the product was lacking in strength, I cannot fault their customer service. As you can see in the photo, the vertical members of the shelves are two-piece. The top clips into the bottom, and this turns out to have been the weak point. the replacement units have a single piece vertical, of much thicker steel. So a word of warning to avoid 'stacked' shelving. The new stuff going together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Barry you are right about the roof sheets. The ceiling will be insulated with the same polystyrene sheets used for the walls. The 8x4' sheets look like they'll be a nice wedge-in fit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm not a qualified electrician but will 4mm cable be enough with all those inverter run 3 phase machines? I believe that will only give you a 32amp supply, I recon you'd need 10mm cable for a 64amp supply, although you'd have to work it out properly obviously! Although I guess if they have soft start and you only use one at a time you'd be ok? It's something I'm on with myself so should be an interesting read I had 4mm at the old house, connected to a 32A circuit. The phase converter ran absolutely fine on this, the lathe has a 3HP motor. There will only be me working in there, so only one machine at a time . I got a right bo11ocking as an apprentice for running two surface grinders, and a cylindrical grinder at the same time. In my defense, two of the machines were doing jobs where you to do a lot of sit and wait, and I could see them all from . I'm still unsure to this day whether the foreman was more angry that one machine was being used for a 'foreigner', or if was a safety issue. I'm fairly sure it was the former, as safety didn't feature too heavily 20 years ago Bridgeport type machines usually best situated at 45 degrees in a corner. Agreed. Here's a rough layout of the garage so far. If the Rangey will fit under the roller door, there is still space to fit it in. Not sure if there'll be quite enough room to actually work on it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Impressive stuff Mickey. Insulation looks very good. Shame the shelving failed, but as you say some good service off them in replacing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studmuffin Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 After you have insulated this luvly new workshop don't you think a homemade wood burner might just turn it into an official 50 sheds of grey man room Mickey?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 If you are going to put lining boards on, leave them an inch up from the floor - stops them soaking up moisture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 After you have insulated this luvly new workshop don't you think a homemade wood burner might just turn it into an official 50 sheds of grey man room Mickey?? That would be a great plan Barry. Alas I don't think I'll get enough play time in one go to get a fire going. If you are going to put lining boards on, leave them an inch up from the floor - stops them soaking up moisture Good advice, thanks :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studmuffin Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 A woodburner is a great backup plan. It beats sleeping in the dog run if the other half has a hissy fit about Landies taking over life, the universe and everything!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 Right - it's been a while since I've made an update. Progress has been slow, but progress is progress, so I can't complain too much. I have just compounded matters by buying another Landy, but that's another story I’m nearly all the way around the garage with the wall lining. It’s been a matter of moving things, bit at a time, to be able to work on each section, but there’s only the lathe to move now to finish that stage. This got me onto thinking about the floor and how it would be better to paint it before moving the lathe, so I fear another job will begin before the previous one is finished. One PITA fact I discovered from all this is that while the polystyrene boards are 4ft wide, the same as the concrete wall sections, the plaster board is only 1200mm. This means I have small vertical gaps between each sheet where it fixes to the timber studwork. Fortunately the boards overlap the studs just enough to get the drywall screws in. Typically I never considered they might be any different from one another….grrr Other lessons learned re cutting polystyrene board: As I mentioned before Fridgefreezer gave me his home made hot cutting wire tool for this purpose. I used this to begin with, but was mostly hampered by not having enough space to move it around. It also needs some care to get a reasonably straight cut I then tried using a timber saw, which as I expected made a huge mess, but does give a good straight edge. My final tool of choice, which has proven quick and not too messy, was a craft knife with a long snap-off blade. I cut maybe half way through the board, then rested it over the edge of the pile of boards and snapped the rest of the way, rather like I have always have done for plaster board. To continue the theme of having multiple jobs on the go, I have also built a new side entrance door. Not doing this at the stage would have hindered finishing the lining around the door. The old door was a flimsy timber construction, and very rotten. The new door has a frame of 40mm box section steel, clad with 12mm ply inside and out and the void filled with polystyrene. I have to say I'm pretty pleased with the outcome of this sub-project. Door frame in construction. Covering with ply. From the inside, not finished at this point. And from the outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Very nice work Michael. Impressive door frame! I was caught out with the sneaky metrication of 8x4 sheets, leaving me a foot short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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