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ECU location and MS install in RRC


Cheesy

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well a bit more progress, trigger wheel is finally cut and in my hands.

Now a question on idle control, is anyone using the 3 wire bosch unit and if so what size (power and resistance) are you using for the resistor?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Some more done this afternoon, managed to get the crank pulley off. Its an auto so a bit hard to lock up the engine, I managed to do it by warping a tie down strap around the crank pulley and hooking it to the alternator brace, luckily it worked well.

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VR sensor mounted to the power steering bracket, it keeps it tucked out of the way.

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Fuel rail finished with pressure regulator mounted as well.

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and finally two ignitors mounted to a heat sink, these will go near window washer tank.

P1020337_zpsece8f90e.jpg

a bad picture of the trigger wheel and VR sensor all in place

P1020338_zps17889ee3.jpg

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Top work Cheesy!

I enjoy your explanations and photography,

Cheers Charlie

Well I have taken a lot of information from here so hopefully some of this will help other people.

Another little detail that some may have noticed. On my trigger wheel the slotted holes for the bolts open back into the centre hole. The reason for this is that when laser cutting it takes a lot longer to burn through than it does to make a continuous cut so as long as the person doing the job costs it competitively, the less burn throughs the cheaper it will be. In retrospect I shouldnt have had the slots cut at all and just clamped it to the pulley hub and drilled and tapped it since I dont really need any adjustment because Im not using EDIS....

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  • 3 weeks later...

More bits and pieces with no substantial progress.

I bought a serial - Bluetooth module, these seem to be all over ebay etc, its an HC-06. It came preconfigured with the baud rate set at 9600 (which would work with MS1) and a default name and paring code.

For the MS2 the baud rate needs to be changed to 115200 and I wanted to change the name and paring code as well.

Now Im not too good with all of these electrical communication protocols but I think (could be wrong to though) that the HC-06 module is TTL level while the serial USB adapter I have is RS232. The easy way around this was to pull the daughter board out of the 40 pin socket and connect the HC-06 module to a power and ground in the proto area. Then the TXD and RXD to pin 12 and 13 in the 40 pin socket, I cant remember which way I connected them but I did have to swap them to get it to work.

Also dont forget if you have a USB-serial adapter that the baud rate will have to be set at 9600 in the driver/device manager windows. I used an Arduino console.

AT should return OK

AT+NAMEabc should return OKsetname. The name will be abc

AT+PIN1234 should return OksetPIN. The pin will be 1234

AT+BAUD8 should return OK115200

Once the baud has been changed it has to be changed in all of the adapters and consoles etc so do this last

The code for 9600 is AT+BAUD4

Once that was all done I checked that my tablet would connect to the module.

To connect the module to the MS I bought an 8 pin bent header with plastic clip and a matching plug (well I bought all sorts of bits and pieces but this is what I used). I cut the pins that would usually go through the board a bit shorter and hot glued it to the bottom of the MS board with the pins lining up with the SP232 socket, I then soldered the pins together, not really the best method but it looks like it will be strong enough. Then I crimped the 4 wires from the HC-06 module and fitted them to the plastic plug. VCC to pin 16, Ground to pin 15, RXD to 11 and TXD to 12, check these yourself before you put any plugs together.

It now talks to MS Droid on my tablet.

Configuring HC-06

IMG_3323_zps53784d92.jpg

Header pins glued and soldered onto bottom of board, pins 9-16 of the SP232 socket

IMG_3335_zps6bef9106.jpg

Connected and almost ready to go, just need to put a hole in the case and mount the module somehow

IMG_3333_zps1e08ae12.jpg

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I had a quick play with what I have done so far, and to see how rich it is running with the 4CU. The tablet with MS Droid works well, it will be a bit of a pain for tuning but makes a pretty good dash board and the logging seems to work fine.

I managed to drive around the block a few times with the MS connected to O2, MAP and obviously the crank angle sensor. Other than the fact the flapper AFM needed a third of a turn to get it to flick lean I have a couple of things to sort out.

The engine runs after turning off the key so I need a diode on the alternator

The other one is the MS loosing the crank sensor signal and tuning off the fuel pump (well only the relay at the moment). Is this a reset?

This is easily fixed too, I didnt have any shielded wire so the VR sensor just has a twisted pair which runs up over the V beside LH injectors and distributor. It is just a bit too close to the HT leads (I pulled things around and it worked fine). So I will sort out some sort of shielding, when the MS is installed the VR sensor wire wont be close to any HT leads either.

Doing little steps like this seems to make the problem solving pretty simple so I think the next step will be getting the MS controlled ignition working which I can do without removing any of the current setup. The fuel needs the inlet manifold to be swapped which is a bit more work and is basically the point of no return.

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I'd be interested to see what kind of fuelling a standard ecu gives- a data log would be great!

Well mine gives lots.... Im surprised it still ran. Im going to have to get a wide band to get any useful information, I will do a log then. Im not sure if it is just the O2 sensor I have but I cant get it to give a reading other than full rich or full lean on the scale (engine running and moving the flap by hand from the top), although that does make sense given the output narrow bands have.

At the moment Ive given it a third of a turn lean from what it was on the preload wheel in the AFM and it seems to run a lot better, well it idles in drive now, I think the 4CU adds fuel to control the idle so it was already way to rich and then adding more it would stall, leaning it out has let the ECU work like it is supposed to

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Two steps forward and one back, or maybe the other way around......

Ill put my mistakes here as well so maybe it will help other people not make them....

Some bits that worked first, just to recap Im running an ECU controlled wasted spark setup with Hyundai coil packs and Subaru igniters. This required building 4 small circuits (or use the three for the LEDs on the front of the case and build one more) for each of the four ignition channels, A, B, C and D. All pretty simple so far. Channel A comes out at pin 36 as per normal. The other three are fed to SPR2, SPR3 and SPR4, if I was doing this again I would use the spare pins in the middle of the DB37 as they dont have a MAP sensor under them.

Back to the install, I connected channel A to the coil pack and put the leads on to the appropriate plugs (1 and 6). I set the timing to 6 degrees fixed and then started it (still controlled by 4CU and distributor less 2 leads) with the timing light on #1, then I set the trim, seemed like a pretty easy way to do it.

At this stage I got a bit impatient and connected all the leads up and tried to start it with MS ignition and 4CU fuel..... it didnt work, lots of big bangs and I didnt want to look underneath in case the muffler was stuffed..... Gave up for the night.

Next step, I checked the leads on the coil packs and somehow I had got them wrong, so I decided to check each one to make sure the wiring was correct. In the tuning software there is an advance option with output testing so among other things you can select each of the 4 spark channels and set the spark rate etc. So with one lead from each pack connected to a plug sitting on the plenium and the other to a plug in the head I tried each channel. A was good, B and C were good but no D. B, C and D were also swapped around all over the place.

I made up a little lead with some clips and a red LED to have a go at trouble shooting it. First the connector from the ignitor to the coil, A, B and C would flash. I swapped ignitors incase one had a dead channel, still the same. Checked the input to the ignitor, light (but no flash) on A, B, C but not D.

Next I took the cover off DB37 and that looked all good, wires in the right pins so I took out the ECU and had a look in front of the computer...... Turns out SPR1 is not used and that I what I soldered channel D into, that was easy to fix.... happy again.

Put it back in and tried again, this time A and D sparked nicely (one pair of coil packs) nothing on B and C, which was odd because they were working the first time.... I tried the LED plugged into the ignitor output for C and B and it flashed for both.... Still no spark, lots of poking around the connectors to make sure contacts were good, swapped the coil packs and A, D fired the pack that was C, B. Then out of dumb luck I checked the voltage on the live feed to the coil packs, A, D was 12V C,B was 10.4V. I wired each channel with its own fuse and then a two pole relay which is fed from the bulkhead power feed under the dash. I didnt look at the fuse straight away as it is in a fancy holder that has a little LED that shines when the fuse blows, it wasnt. I tried swapping relays but that didnt fix it.

Then I tried the multi-metre on the fuses, one had 12V on both sides the other had 10.4V.... pulled the fuse and it had blown, it looks like the little circuit in the fuse box was enough for the ignitor to switch and flash an LED.....

Fixed that little problem and I now have sparks on all four coil packs, so some progress!!

Now the next problem I am having is that the VR sensor looses sync at cranking speed, well below 800rpm. Ive done a bit of reading on this and there are a few avenues to look at. The first is adjusting the threshold and hysteresis pots on the VR conditioner circuit. I will also have a look and see what firmware I have as there is a tooth logger in the newer ones that can help setting up VR circuit.

So in short check fuses first if something isnt working!! and that the "output test mode" is very useful.

Now if anyone reading has played with the old megajolts, how did they drive the 4CU?

Im guessing that I could get the MS2 to run the ignition and the 4CU by using something like the tach drive circut with the diode for each channel (from each coil pack) connected to the white wire that runs from the coil in the standard setup?

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Awesome report Cobber! What about posting some pics as well?

Cheers Charlie

Not much to see really, if you want any specifics let me know. Here is the coil packs and ignitors mounted against the firewall. There is a metal bracket behind the ignitors as the plastic wouldnt be strong enough. If I had of realised when I had the dash out I would of taken the whole metal panel with the relays on it out and made a mounting bracket directly onto that.

IMG_3345_zps497d52fa.jpg

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Some photos, MS sneaking out of its hole and the previously mentioned fuse box mounted where there were some switches that didnt seem to do much

IMG_3357_zps26a2c8db.jpg

Then the relays which havent found a permanent home yet. R-L, blue is the fuel pump, brown two coil packs, brown two injector banks, blue idle valve and blue O2 heater. Each "pole" from the relays has a fuse, so Fuel pump (which is missing in above picture), one for each coil pack, one for each injector bank, one for O2 heater, one for ECU, one for idle valve and two spare.

IMG_3358_zpsb23ba0c5.jpg

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More trials but some success. The later MS2 extra firmware has diagnostics for setting up the VR circuit conditioning. The MS droid app has a menu entry for this feature but it was greyed out, thinking that I must have been using an old firmware so couldnt use this feature I reflashed the latest firmware... then I found they had changed the code so it no longer worked with MS droid..... Luckily someone had a fix so another flash and its working again, turns out MS droid didnt have the trigger wheel functionality anyway...

Anyway, got a new set of HT leads for my coil packs and had a go at starting it, it actually worked. Initially I had the lead out of the lucas coil connected to an earthed sparkplug, this did work but it would stop randomly, Im guessing the 4CU was cutting fuel as the VR sensor on the crank didnt loose sync. Once I earthed the coil straight to the chassis with no plug it worked fine.

The one bug I still have is that it will always loose sync once during cranking, I might have to play with the pots in the VR circuit a bit more, or maybe it doesnt matter, still starts fine.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well I havent done much on it lately as it is almost running tolerably..... The MS is running the Hyundai coil packs and Subaru ignitors nicely while the 4CU is still badly controlling the fuel.

Interestingly the other day it would not start so I swapped the plugs for a set that were in the spare engine I bought (almost new by the looks of it), it fired and ran straight away, although maybe it un flooded itself while I was doing this. Anyway the idle suddenly jumped from a steady 800 to a steady 1300 which seemed rather strange for a plug swap. Maybe the old ones were really dead and only just hanging on. Idle adjusted and its all working fine.

I have also got rid of almost all of the sync loss, I built a circuit, well not really, I added a resistor in line on the +side of the VR sensor and a second one from the MS side of the first one to ground, it works well now.

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  • 4 weeks later...

One step forward and two back again..... Decided that it really should have some fresh anti freeze in it since I had to dump the coolant when I put the trigger wheel on (radiator had to come out). Now it is leaking coolant everywhere, including a crack in the brass header tank, radiator is ok though. So I figured I would change the various hoses when I swapped the injectors... While trying to remove the small coolant hose that goes from the manifold to the throttle body (or maybe radiator) the hose tail came out of the manifold still inside the hose, so I needed to change manifolds as well, better now than trying to drive somewhere anyway.

So with that I had to get a vally gasket, in the end a top end gasket kit seemed the best way to do it, and since the antifreeze made everything leak I figured it was worth doing the head gaskets at the same time.

Heads off and the bores look good, valves out the exhausts arent the best but will have to do for now.

The interesting part of this exercise came from measuring the bore and stroke with a pair of calipers, now keep in mind this is in an 89 RRC and the engine number makes it a 3.5. The bore was as expected of around 89mm however the stroke is also 89mm, that makes it a bit bigger than standard!!

Well that was the good bit, the cam and followers are pretty stuffed but they will have to wait a while. This weeks should see the engine back together with a different manifold on in.

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You have in there, most likely, a Leyland P76 engine, they were 4.4 litre from the factory, and have those bore/stroke dimensions.

If it is, then you may find the valley gasket and different inlet manifold don't fit.... The deck height is different.

Good news is they have 200BHP from the outset, and that's before you get MS on it :)

What was the engine number?

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You have in there, most likely, a Leyland P76 engine, they were 4.4 litre from the factory, and have those bore/stroke dimensions.

If it is, then you may find the valley gasket and different inlet manifold don't fit.... The deck height is different.

Good news is they have 200BHP from the outset, and that's before you get MS on it :)

What was the engine number?

Well I wont say it is definitely a 3.5 block, but Im pretty sure it is... someone could have re-stamped the engine numbers on the block and cast an inlet manifold that looks just like the flapper one but wide enough to fit. Any way words are boring so I will take some pictures of it today.

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One gungy V8

P1020366_zps4cb74672.jpg

Piston close to BDC, the top of the piston (where I was measuring to) is flush with the top of the block at TDC

P1020365_zpse1b9cc1e.jpg

9.35:1 CR block, the piston crowns are also different to the 3.5 ones I have in the shed

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and last the stupid coolant fitting that came out of the manifold, and yes this manifold came off this block and it was running, not particularly well though, it would not start if it was below about 5deg outside, hence the push to finish the MS install.

P1020363_zpsf0e067a3.jpg

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