dollythelw Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 was wondering if a ram could be used as a lazy way to lock the system up therefore returning it to a stock setup - clevis and ram in a digger boom stylee, like I said more coffee required B) Good to get experienced feedback on the setup though - cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 That's pretty much what I had in mind with the ram I've got. It wont remove torque steer off road, but a damper will slow it down, hopefully to the point you can react to it. Likewise with the torque lean generated. Locking the ram would return the geometry to near standard - so you could have it normally locked with a 'super articulation' button on the top of your gearstick to give you the articulation if you need it? Another idea, I think closer to what Jez suggested is having a locking sleeve which slides along the radius arm and captures a plate on either side of the axle mount to lock it off. The sleeve can be moved using a handbrake cable connected to another lever in the cab. Tell you what, with the hydraulic ram to lock it in one position, if you wanted to lean the vehicle one way or another, you stick it in drive or reverse with the brakes on then lock the ram. it will then hold that lean. Might be useful for moving your punch card a couple of inches closer to the punch! So many possibilities! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I think the ram with flow control would give you what you want Si - wack the damping up for "driveable but twisty" and lock it for "normal use" or leave it open for "twist like hell"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 I like it! But what about an air operated ram instead of hydraulic? Less hassle for those who have OBA? Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 air is compressible - it wouldnt so much lock out - more sort of just bouncy it out the hydro circuit would need any kind of pump, just a closed circuit with flow control element to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 air is compressible - it wouldnt so much lock out Whoups! My coat,thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 You could use an air solenoid to lock it with a sliding pin etc Just a thought Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T1G UP Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 seems complicated because it can be! can't see scrapiron pinching that one........yet! whats wrong with mounting a 3 link with the middle link coming off the top of the diff an on to a bracket off the right hand chassis rail. this would follow the prop and theres loads of room. Am i missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 seems complicated because it can be!can't see scrapiron pinching that one........yet! whats wrong with mounting a 3 link with the middle link coming off the top of the diff an on to a bracket off the right hand chassis rail. this would follow the prop and theres loads of room. Am i missing something? There isn't loads of room! On a 4 cylinder the oil filter is right above the diff, and on a v8 the down pipe would be in the way. Unless that is you run stupid amouns of lift that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T1G UP Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Ok mine a v8.change the gearbox xmember and mount it there to the right? no manifold to worry about. cyl engine,what about a remote oil filter set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 There isn't loads of room!On a 4 cylinder the oil filter is right above the diff, and on a v8 the down pipe would be in the way. Unless that is you run stupid amouns of lift that is. What he says, total PITA. I've looked at it and I might be able to make it work but the exhaust would be 'interesting' and would give me issues with the intake pipework. Even then it'd be chronically tight so I'm doing something differant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 Well, Just back from Slindon. Had a brilliant day driving around with Graham (Rocker) in the tipping rain! The missing link suspension performed fantasticly. OK, it leans a bit when you drive, brake or engine brake - but it's not much worse than it was before. I tend to drive technical bits very slowly anyway. I did most of the day with all the diffs (including the centre) unlocked - and didn't notice. I reckon it has improved the cross-axle capability by about 50%. Theres one bit I failed to drive before, in the dry, which is a serious cross axle up a big steep step. Although I had to use the middle & front lockers - it just gobbled it up! I think a ram with a remote adjustable needle valve to damp the roll a bit off road and act as an anti-roll device on the road by closing the valve completly - will be an absolute winner! There are not many mods I've done which in one hit have made such a big difference. Possibly a rear locker - but that's the only one I can think of! Big smiley! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Sounds like a positive result Si! Have you considered beefing up the single bolt you now have on that side? Maybe upping the grade and thickening the axle mounts? To be honest, I don't know the size of the bolt or the thickness of the existing plates, but going from 2 bolts to one (and consequently no redundancy) might be an issue? Watching this one closely as it is almost a fit for the day type of mod as it stands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Well, Just back from Slindon.Had a brilliant day driving around with Graham (Rocker) in the tipping rain! The missing link suspension performed fantasticly. OK, it leans a bit when you drive, brake or engine brake - but it's not much worse than it was before. I tend to drive technical bits very slowly anyway. I did most of the day with all the diffs (including the centre) unlocked - and didn't notice. I reckon it has improved the cross-axle capability by about 50%. Theres one bit I failed to drive before, in the dry, which is a serious cross axle up a big steep step. Although I had to use the middle & front lockers - it just gobbled it up! I think a ram with a remote adjustable needle valve to damp the roll a bit off road and act as an anti-roll device on the road by closing the valve completly - will be an absolute winner! There are not many mods I've done which in one hit have made such a big difference. Possibly a rear locker - but that's the only one I can think of! Big smiley! Si Did you fit the standard arm to the left to counter act the drive torque? Did it make a difference? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I'll be waiting for my royalty cheque for the varidamp idea... glad to hear the testing looks promising Si B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 Daan, Not swapped sides yet. I think that will make a difference - it will matter less whether I brake or accelerate on left or right hand bends! The original bolts are about M16 (or some imperial size that's about the same). I reckon there should be less shear force on the single bolt than ther is on it in the original configuration as it is not trying to restrain the axle from rotating. On a 45 degree side slope, my back of an envelope force resolving calculation gives about two ton shear on the original bolts. The compressive/tensile force on the ram will be about 3 ton for the ram I have. Cornering hard, the forces could well be higher though. I think an M16 bolt is probably sufficient - but tell me if I'm way off! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I think youre ok with a single m16 bolt in this application. After all, the three links available dont change this dimension either. What I would suggest is to fit longer bolts in this setup; I remember that the bolts on my axle had the threaded portion in the axle bracket. I replaced these with one size longer, so the shank sits in the bracket and the threaded portion starts just outside the bracket. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Si, M!6 Grade 8.8 will eat three tonnes in shear, especially as it is in double shear. The weak point will be the mounting brackets on the axle - how thick are they? You can get a good gauge of the shear capacity from the Steel Designer's Manual link I sent you a while back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Well, Just back from Slindon.Had a brilliant day driving around with Graham (Rocker) in the tipping rain! The missing link suspension performed fantasticly. OK, it leans a bit when you drive, brake or engine brake - but it's not much worse than it was before. I tend to drive technical bits very slowly anyway. I did most of the day with all the diffs (including the centre) unlocked - and didn't notice. I reckon it has improved the cross-axle capability by about 50%. Theres one bit I failed to drive before, in the dry, which is a serious cross axle up a big steep step. Although I had to use the middle & front lockers - it just gobbled it up! I think a ram with a remote adjustable needle valve to damp the roll a bit off road and act as an anti-roll device on the road by closing the valve completly - will be an absolute winner! There are not many mods I've done which in one hit have made such a big difference. Possibly a rear locker - but that's the only one I can think of! Big smiley! Si Should be good with the hydraulics. Well done Simon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I have high hopes We too Si, did you bring the camera along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Daan, you are quite right. The hinged arm should be on the right (drivers) side. The lean generated by prop shaft torque combined with axle roll is quite pronounced.I've done a bit of road testing today - 30 miles worth - and once you learn how it behaves, it's not too bad. I have come to an unusual conclusion though. I think what it needs is roll-damping. After all, you rarely if ever need the articulation to happen fast. On the road, it tends to be sudden changes which cause problems as you cannot react fast enough. Something like this to start with: I'll mount it across the hinge so the damper moves as the hinge flexes. It's just a regular ram filled with ATF with rate adjusters on either end - so you can control the compression & rebound separately. Made as a steering damper for the electric bar stool. May turn out not to be strong enough - but will prove the concept. I mighe even be able to adjust it so the hinged arm exactly cancels torque roll (as per Daan's post). I think the combination of these might make it a lot more civilised. Si Si, i have been running a very similar set up to what you have drawn in the background for over a year the idea came about for more steering lock as much as articulation when trialing. this was the mockup but has lasted all the awdc challenges, the argyll, inter club and trialing inbetween so well strong enough and sound on the road i have had to u bolt the springs on to the chassis and axle to stop the springs from keep dislocating this problem will be solved now as i am putting coilovers on and the same setup on the back, front on a normal truck i will start mods on the truck after the last awdc challenge at slindon ready for next year just starting to make the jig for new A frames Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 Saley, That looks good! I was just doodling - another application for my trailing arm joint! Nice to see someone actually doing it though! Bish, The plates on either side of the axle mountings, at the moment are 6mm thick and have a minimum width of 40mm. The forces action on them are entirely in the direction of max strength/rigidity. I think it looks about right - although, having said that, the Safari-guard 3 link uses 8 or 10mm thick plates so I may be wrong! I'll try it! My plan, longer term for the ram is to get a double ended ram made so it has the same swept volume on either side of the piston with a single flow control valve in the middle of a pipe connecting the ports. I'll remote the knob on the valve into the cab using a speedo cable or similar. That means the hydraulics are quite self contained and you don't have to run any high pressure tube anywhere. The rain seems to have stopped - so I can get on & fit the ram! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Steerforth Si they do a quick turnaround on custom rams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 Steerforth Sithey do a quick turnaround on custom rams Thanks Jez, I've used them before! Fairly local (Aldershot). Good for buying the components if you want to make your own rams too. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 No worries Si, Saley - how long do you find the bushes last with your setup? looks cool - sort of torsion tube meets landrover B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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