Getting more flex from the front?

[Chicken Drumstick]

After many months I've managed to get my Series III 88 running and driving well. But one thing seems apparent, it lacks front end suspension travel. I suspect among other reason the length of the spring is partly to play. But what options are there to improve flex?

Not looking for coil conversions. Something leaf orientated. And I like to compete in ALRC events, although happy to be modified class.

The 88 is currently as I bought it running some Paddock sourced parabolics and Procomp shocks. It rides and handles quite nicely and the back seems to flex sufficiently for my needs. But the front seems to have very little travel which often results in lifting a rear wheel. I'll post some pics up later to illustrate.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Some pics to illustrate.

This mockup RTV section. There is a tight left turn where the front drivers/right hand wheel drops into a hole while ok lock. A good stock 90 won't lift a wheel here or just bearly.

With the 88 you can see the rear passenger/left wheel is clearly off the ground. A good 6 inches plus.

Although as said I think the back looks like it flexes quite well for a stock vehicle. Plenty of gap above the drooped wheel and on the over side the drivers side rear is tucked up well in the arch.

I believe the problem is at the front. If the drivers front had drooped more and the passenger front compressed more it would have prevented the body from tipping as far over. And thus removed the need for the passenger rear to drop as much.

Hardly any flex from the front axle:

Another shot showing the lack of movement on the front and the rear wheel cleat off the deck.

Another shot showing the limited front end travel:

[FridgeFreezer]

I run Gon2Far twisting mounts (locked on the road and usually forget to unlock them when off-road) and long shocks, you can see the effect here, allowing the spring to twist:

If you look at ToyRoverLander's 109 using rear springs on the front and any suspension thread with Bill Van Snorkle joining in you'll get more ideas.

[Team Idris]

I'll say go opposite and replace the front bumper with a length of 6mm angle, doubled up. 80" get around really well as they drive around on three wheels.

You only really hit trouble with something like my truck with; rear rad, batteries and fuel tank + mid-winches. It easily lifts a wheel on each axel, which leaves one less axel driving than you have now

Flex is good, but a trike is pretty capable

[ToyRoverlander]

What fridgefreezer has is great if you don't want to fit longer springs up front. That, in combination with longer shocks works well. Probably the easiest way to achieve what you want.

Longer springs up front, stick out more and reduce approach angle. I would only fit longer springs when you go spring over and/or fit bigger tires. This mod is more involved than the twisting mounts I reckon.

Mine: Rear springs up front and 14" travel shocks, sprung over.

[Tanuki]

Are the leaf-springs actually allowing full travel? Over the decades I've experienced plenty of leafers where suspension-articulation has been horribly compromised by allowing rust/mud to accrete between the leaves so they don't slide properly over each-other. If the leaf-clamps show any signs of being 'splayed' then it's a good chance your leaves have a serious rust-problem. Your on- and off-road experiences will be really rather bad if the leaves have rusted up. Inter-leaf rust can also be responsible for horrible steering-drift issues under hard braking.

Do the bump-stops show evidence of the suspension ever becoming fully-compressed? [hint: cut some individual 'bubbles' out of bubble-wrap and fit them to the bump-stops with a dab of Evo-Stik - then check them after a bit of driving to see if they've been burst].

Do the axles ever drop to the point where the webbing retainer-straps are supporting them [again, do something creative with bubbles to check this].

[ToyRoverlander]

All very true, but Series have terrible front end flex due to their ridiculously short springs. You might get a bit more out of it by cleaning and what not but the difference is not going to be huge.

[David Sparkes]

Some of you have missed a sentence in the very first post:

"The 88 is currently as I bought it running some Paddock sourced parabolics and Procomp shocks".

What he hasn't said is if these are two or three leaf units. If three he could perhaps 'lose' a leaf, without too many adverse consequences.

Whatever is done, introducing more compliance in the front suspension is going to affect the way the vehicle drives on tarmac roads. The change may or may not be an issue with this owners driving style, but it will feel differently, and he should be aware of this.

HTH

[discomikey]

2 or three leaf front, i cant see him getting much more flex out the front without modifying the system in one way or the other. like mentioned above the springs are extremely short, and quite flat in comparison to some too. this means that it hasnt got the capability (partially due to the short swing shackle and partly due to the short "flat length" of the spring)

another thing hindered as a resuly of the spring being so short, is the twist available. its like trying to twist, say an aux belt. you should be able to twist an aux belt around 90 degrees between the 2 pulleys that are furthest apart (general rule of thumb tension check) whereas try twisting the belt at the point where the distance between 2 pulleys is shortest, you cant get more than say 15-30 degrees.

both of these issues have been adressed above in seperate ways. one "easier" way i could think of to gain a longer spring, would be to have a more arched spring, but at a standard "curved" length, so the eyes are still as close together and therefore will fit the standard location, but overall length is longer, allowing more lengthening when under bump, and more contraction when under droop.

obviously longer shackles would be required to allow the spring to move longer and shorter. and all tis would lift the front of the truck, but if its anything like mine (RM 3 leaf rear, 2 leaf front) (and other makes ive had) it will probably be pointing nose down by a fair bit anyway.

havent got a clue what the more curved spring would do to spring rates and ride quality. but someone grown up will probably be able to advise on that one.

HTH

[ToyRoverlander]

Front parabolic springs only consist of 2leaves, not three. And those 2leaf springs are already too soft. Rears could be 2or 3leaf but the rear end is not his problem.

[ToyRoverlander]

The problem with a heavily curved spring is that they are way less capable of torsional bending than a flat spring. Easiest way to compare, try to twist a ruler when it's held flat. That goes easy. Now try again when it's bend, not quite so easy.

More curved springs usually suck for droop travel.

one "easier" way i could think of to gain a longer spring, would be to have a more arched spring, but at a standard "curved" length, so the eyes are still as close together and therefore will fit the standard location, but overall length is longer, allowing more lengthening when under bump, and more contraction when under droop.

[discomikey]

knew it wouldnt be that simple lol

[Bowie69]

Cleaning them, if old springs, WILL make a difference, especially if it has been laid up for a while.

You can do it by cross axling it, a large screwdriver/chisel in between the leaves and squirt plusgas or duck oil in them, followed by some engine oil, makes the ride more supple in my experience too.

[WHO4 MUD]

then put a Denzo tape around them so the mud doesn't get back in.

[ToyRoverlander]

Sure it might improve it but even then, standard series suspension sucks for articulation, especially at the front. If you want a real improvement drastic changes are needed like those swivel mounts or longer springs in combination with longer travel shocks.

For comparison. Mine when it was still totally original, sitting crossaxled. Front axle hitting the bumpstop. This is as much as the front end could possibly move. Compared to what it is now with rear springs up front, wider axles and 14" travel shocks (not fitted at the time this pic was taken).

[Bowie69]

Yep, but compared to rusted solid springs it will be much better, I agree it will never be ideal, but it will be a step in the right direction, and may be enough for the OP.

[ToyRoverlander]

But he has parabolic prings with tons of room in between the leaves which generally don't rust together... so a non issue.

[Daan]

how about greased shackle bolts? It does look like very little travel. Also, on droop, there is a good chance the shocks are bottoming out. maybe try cycling it out without the shocks fitted.

[deep]

It doesn't really look any better than it would be with standard front suspension. Maybe even not as good as a nicely worn in set (i.e. half worn). I see if I can hunt out photos from my various Rovers over the years. However, it is true the back suspension has more travel but that shouldn't be a surprise. What is more of a surprise is how much travel there is, overall, with leaf suspension. I know my 109 with standard springs takes some effort to cross-axle.

Just out of interest, do you have rubber bushes or the harder, modern type? Rubber is better for twisting.

[deep]

This is about right for a leafer...

[Bowie69]

Hadn't realised it was on paras, in which case I reckon your shocks are bottoming out due to the lift they give, very early.

[Gremlin]

Here is my effort in fixing front end flex without going too extreme. Extended military chassis plus military shackles, and rear shock from an 88". Springs are standard with some leafs removed (i think i run 9 instead of 11) I also have 1 inch spacers under the bumpstops to avoid reverse arching the springs. You can see i have some good droop on the offside front (dont have a pic from that side)

From the OP pics it seems you might have the Fronts slightly too stiff so it make the rears work more.

G

[Michele]

Not bad, Gremilin.

Now, let's see the other side as well

[FridgeFreezer]

A million years ago when mine was standard-ish, TIC parabolics & standard length ProComps:

Gon2far got decent flex with paras, swivelly front mounts (like mine) and much longer front shocks without changing spring length. I'll have to have a dig for any old photos from back in the day.

My front shocks are actually in coiler shock towers which work quite nicely - weld the coiler spring mount on and then it's your choice of off-the-shelf shock turrets in any length!

[discomikey]

quick question FF, how do they lock out for road use? i know they can but never seen a set in real life. unfortunately im reluctant to cut my galvy chassis otherwise i would have done this ages ago!