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Running a 300tdi without an intercooler


dave88sw

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I'm in the process of converting my series 3 to 300tdi. I have an intercooler i could fit bit space is tight. The thing is, i don't want a massive power increase (i converted for economy not power) and i'd like to keep it as simple as possible. So what are peoples thoughts on removing the intercooler and just plumbing turbo outlet to inlet manifold? I've read conflicting opinions all over the place, some saying raised EGTs, some saying they've done it and it's fine. I'm inclined to think it would be fine, many manufacturers built turbo'd diesels without an intercooler (one that springs to mind is the VW T4, same engine in the lower powered vans just fitted without the intercooler).

I'm just looking for opinions on whether it will have any negative effects (other than reducing power output).

Thanks

Dave

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all i know is that was one of the main differences between the TDi series and the older 19j engine. along with oil jets and revised pistons etc. the 19j engines saw a lot of cracked and melted pistons and i have also seen melted pistons in a 200tdi.

not that im trying to put you off not fitting one but it wasnt that much effort to fit one in my series with a 200

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Haven't done it, but have run a isuzu turbo diesel in a land rover which is very similar to the LR engine in many respects. They are non intercooler from the factory and have no problems, though from memory the pressure ran at 0.8 bar and the turbo was slightly smaller.

Presumably you are going to give it ordinary use rather than towing a fishing boat down an autobbahn, so wouldn't have thought egt temp would be too much a worry?

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When you say the only difference was an intercooler on the T4, you could argue it the other way around, and say that the lower power T4 didn't get so hot that it needed an intercooler? But it is true that some engines are fine, and some melt down!

I've seen plenty of 200 and 300 tdi on winch challenge trucks without one, but that's only short bursts of power. (normally).

What about a water-over-air charge cooler? I see one on ebay for £250, and that's cooling with minimal turbo lag. All that pump gubbins is something you might argue against? But plenty of stuff out there uses the rad water as the charge coolant. With compressed air at maybe 200 deg.c it'll still knock the heat energy down.

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Thanks guys, all good points so far. I will be giving it fairly ordinary use, probably an easier life than most would have (i tend to cruise at 60, any more and you start to question the brakes and steering etc) but i may tow with it now and again.

In all honesty, i would welcome the slight drop in power, it would be kinder to the gearbox and would still be double the output of the tired 2.25 petrol. I have actually got a td5 intercooler that would fit across the front of the radiator quite well but will restrict room for a fan and if it's not necessary i'd love to run without one (the extra space gained from losing the intercooler hoses would be nice too).

All that said, if losing it is likely to reduce the longevity of the engine, i wouldn't risk it, i don't plan on having it apart any more often than absolutely necessary.

Cheers

Dave

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I would still look at ways of fitting the intercooler, there is space under the radiator and in front of the engine sump if its inclined at arround 45 degrees, and is still above the primitive protection bar, it wont have the advantage of fan assist but when the vehicle is moving the air flow will be okay .

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If you really don't want to fit an cooler of some description, then at least fit an EGT gauge so you can measure exactly how bad a decision that was :hysterical: (or so you can lift off before things get too silly)

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I've no intercooler on my 200, but I'll be fitting it this year I think. Fitting an intercooler won't kill the transmission. Driving like a tit will, fitting an intercooler won't. I'm led to believe fuel economy improves with one fitted. Certainly don't remove the turbo, God awful things without the turbo, better off sticking with a 12J n/a.

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Yes you can leave out the intercooler. EGT might go up a bit, that's the only thing that can happen. Fit an EGT gauge to see what's going on. Who knows, it might not even raise that much. If EGT's seem to get too high, reduce fuel a bit or increase boost a bit and go for a spin to check again. Or lift your right foot to reduce load on the engine, cheaper and easier solution :P

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Yes you can leave out the intercooler. EGT might go up a bit, that's the only thing that can happen. Fit an EGT gauge to see what's going on. Who knows, it might not even raise that much. If EGT's seem to get too high, reduce fuel a bit or increase boost a bit and go for a spin to check again. Or lift your right foot to reduce load on the engine, cheaper and easier solution :P

To a good approximation, EGT goes up by the temp drop across the intercooler multiplied by absolute boost pressure ratio. So if the intercooler would have dropped intake temp by 25C, and you run 1 bar of boost, then the EGT will be 50C higher. (Source : Ricardo - The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine)

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Is there any published research on the effect of vehicle speed against intercooling effect anywhere ? I'm about to re pipe a 200TDI in my SII to do away with the intercooler.Again I dont want loads of power,it was a free engine to replace a worn out petrol. Reliability and better consumption will be nice,I was even thinking of shutting the pump down.Most of its work will be in the woods in low range,1st/2nd gear stuff.Cant see that an intercooler would be any help to me at all - just more pipework...

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I don't think you'll have to do anything but turn down the boost fuelling a tad to avoid smoking excessively at full throttle. That's an easy enough job - undo the four screws that hold the top of the boost tower on the injection pump, note where the dimple is on the silver disc in relation to the pump, then pull the disc, diaphragm and plunger up and out to look at the cone on the bottom, and then reinsert it with the cone in a position where it is slightly flatter rather than heavily tapered. You may ned to adjust it a few times to get it right, but you really just want a little thin black smoke at full throttle, not completely clear and not thick smuts...

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Is there any published research on the effect of vehicle speed against intercooling effect anywhere ? I'm about to re pipe a 200TDI in my SII to do away with the intercooler.Again I dont want loads of power,it was a free engine to replace a worn out petrol. Reliability and better consumption will be nice,I was even thinking of shutting the pump down.Most of its work will be in the woods in low range,1st/2nd gear stuff.Cant see that an intercooler would be any help to me at all - just more pipework...

I have had minor faults on a 200 and a 300 Tdi that resulted in full boost from the turbo but no fuel response to that boost - the 200 had a tiny split in the pump diaphragm and the 300 had a seized pin that the the diaphragm plunger works on. In both case, power and torque were down, but fuel economy was good and there was no trace of smoke at full throttle. Engine coolant and oil temperatures were slightly reduced. So, you could reduce the boost by adjusting the waste gate actuator, or you could just blank off the boost line from the turbo to the injection pump if performance is not an concern. It makes the vehicle sluggish compared to normal, but swifter than the old normally aspirated engines.

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have a read around here http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm

no reason why a 300 should be any different to a 2

I've been running a 300Di for 5 years now with which overall I'm very pleased with it, as a daily driver she's perfect. If there is one let down it would be when I'm climbing a tricky spot where some wheel spin would help, I just can't get enough rev's to break the tires loose. With a turbo I'm sure that I could.

So with that last sentence said, I've been thinking of upgrading the motor with installing a turbo again but without the inter cooler. (Fingers crossed that the MOT man doesn't notice it) Dave, will you be running the external oil cooler? In my original conversion I deleted it but with already buying a turbo I ordered an universal oil cooler that I will place in front of the radiator. The 300tdi's normally run cool plus the oil cooler is thermostat controlled, so even if the motor oil does get hot, the oil cooler thermostat will open helping to lower the motor temp.

With what I've read on the internet which was sparse, I think that running without an inter cooler you will be ok. As long as you look out for heating issues with a low restrictive exhaust, a good radiator and an external oil cooler.

Todd.

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Is there any published research on the effect of vehicle speed against intercooling effect anywhere ? I'm about to re pipe a 200TDI in my SII to do away with the intercooler.Again I dont want loads of power,it was a free engine to replace a worn out petrol. Reliability and better consumption will be nice,I was even thinking of shutting the pump down.Most of its work will be in the woods in low range,1st/2nd gear stuff.Cant see that an intercooler would be any help to me at all - just more pipework...

I disagree, if you read this (my own findings), you will see why: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=78688&page=1

I would not run a tdi without an intercooler myself, it is a free mod in terms of gains, even if you dont use the extra power, it will translate in better efficiency. You will need to use a fan with it at low speeds though.

Daan

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i converted for economy not power

Those are two sides of the same coin, if your engine runs more efficiently you either get more power for the same amount of fuel, or for the same amount of power you use less fuel. Your right foot decides which one you go for.

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Why? In low range slow stuff there's barely a load on the engine, hardly any boost at all and low egt's. No need for an intercooler. Unless you're doing sustained full throttle boghole crossings or something similar.

I only get boost over 0.5bar when stomping the throttle in 3rd or 4th low gear in soft sand up hills with both lockers engaged.


You will need to use a fan with it at low speeds though.

Daan

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Why? In low range slow stuff there's barely a load on the engine, hardly any boost at all and low egt's. No need for an intercooler. Unless you're doing sustained full throttle boghole crossings or something similar.

I only get boost over 0.5bar when stomping the throttle in 3rd or 4th low gear in soft sand up hills with both lockers engaged.

Did you measure temperatures before and after the intercooler while you did this? I found 10 degrees difference between with or without a fan on anything that is higher than tickover.

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Did you measure temperatures before and after the intercooler while you did this? I found 10 degrees difference between with or without a fan on anything that is higher than tickover.

Oi you, stop using science and facts and stuff!

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