Craig Davis EWP150 Electric Water Pump & Controller & COOLING

[landkeeper]

how about a couple of series 3 wing/heater vents with some ducting and a couple of good fans, with the right setup you could pull hot air straight out of the engine bay , i have a series of holes in the edge of the bonnet on mine and all they seem to do is direct steam at the windscreen lol

[Adam001]

Heat output is a direct result of power, you are bragging that you only have a small one, that's unusual but fair play to you

Efficiency my friend If I dropped a M3 engine in, it would still be the same. Argument holds true, for 70% of driving / idling / cruising etc we are all using exactly the same amount of power

But yes, I like to protect my little one

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

44 louvre design

Strengthening removed off underneath

1x row over top of engine 2x rows over exhausts.....need to polish back to paint and planning Saturday for louvres punched onto it

Mmmmm

[landroversforever]

I can't remember the power gains Nige.... is it an extra 5 or 10 bhp per louvre?

[Bowie69]

Say hello to a steamed up windscreen.... And an impromptu sauna every time you wade

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

get that now lol !!!!!!!!!!!!

Itz da blue lights innit underneaf wot give da BHP innit

Louvres iz just wickid n kwel like wot the owner is (stop laughing)

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I prefer to think of it as a Warmed Windscreen wash system

[landkeeper]

just keep the bulkhead vent flaps closed it helps a bit

[Davo]

I've more-or-less been there and done that, albeit on a teeny 3.5 V8. This is in my Rangie and I tried all sorts of things like bonnet holes along the sides, taking the guts out of the thermostat so just the outside of it sat in there like a restrictor plate, thermo fans, and even making an angled plate to go from the bottom of the bullbar up to the bottom of the radiator to feed air from an old winch hole in the bumper up to the rad.

Even when I had the same trouble this year with a brand-new frickin' engine I was busy pulling my hair out when I chanced to actually look at the expensive and brand-new made-in-Scotland radiator that turned out not to have nearly as many tubes as any of my old ones. Old rad in, problem gone.

Therefore, go for bigger and better cooling however you do it before you start chopping holes in things. I really found these engine need heaps of radiator to cool them. The Yanks can keep enormous V8s cool so you should be able to as well. My engine didn't respond to anything else. Interestingly, coolant capacity didn't seem to matter quite so much as the core design. The old rad in there now is doing really well and didn't look too special.

I did talk to this guy: http://www.ftrs.com.au/ Apart from his extreme grumpiness, he sounded like he knew his stuff and basically what he said was that he could do the best core known to man. He's worked with a Rover V8 so it sounds like he was able to build a new radiator with the old tanks for a customer that solved an overheating problem. I'm not saying you should get a rad from Oz but that radiator design and size is probably your best bet to start with.

[Edlen]

You may also want to read this http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Cooling/ makes interesting reading.

[Bowie69]

Nige has, I am sure, read all that, and has already got a blingy deep'n'wide ali radiator, just apparently it aint enough to keep the 5.2 Eales cool.

I still reckon there is another problem somewhere that just hasn't been identified -I can't see why my 4.0 putting out ~240-250BHP should be putting out so much less heat than a 5.2 putting out 330BHP. Mine is cooled on a stock RRC radiator with some twin electric mondeo fans switched around 85C, and never had a problem.

Anyways, this is an electric water pump thread, not a continued cooling problem thread

[Davo]

Nige has, I am sure, read all that, and has already got a blingy deep'n'wide ali radiator, just apparently it aint enough to keep the 5.2 Eales cool.

I still reckon there is another problem somewhere that just hasn't been identified -I can't see why my 4.0 putting out ~240-250BHP should be putting out so much less heat than a 5.2 putting out 330BHP. Mine is cooled on a stock RRC radiator with some twin electric mondeo fans switched around 85C, and never had a problem.

Anyways, this is an electric water pump thread, not a continued cooling problem thread

Sorry . . . I must have gotten confused by his initial post starting with the word "cooling ....."!

I just didn't want him to start cutting useless holes in his bonnet and so on. I agree with you though, there must be a problem somewhere else. A 5.2 litre V8 is dead average in American terms so the cooling shouldn't be such a drama. I merely mentioned my own humble experience since I found that anything other than a good radiator made no difference. Come to think of it, there's a guy on aulro.com running a Chevy, (5.0 litre?), with a stock standard radiator and electric fans, one wired to always run. Apparently he's had no trouble for years in Melbourne or somewhere like that.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Theres 5.2s and 5.2s...

Mine is pretty much s race engine. Billet crank aluminium rods short skirt pistons square bore x stroke eorked heads high comp....vs a large std 5.0 somethong big cc srd engine

In simple terms mine revs fast..like s motor bike vs a lorry

This generates heat....lots if it...

These engines are normally in rear engine racers with big fans roof scoops and electric water pumps. Mine is in a road going 90 with front mounted engine. ...ewp has made a huge difference....just after a but more....

louvres this Saturday ....

[V8 Freak]

Yeah but if it's crawling / normal road use Nige, it's not at 6k RPM / 342 BHP and a throbbing lump of madness... It's like every other large capacity V8 at that point. Generating heat that needs to be dissipated.

If others are able to use stock items that cool "similar" engines in more "normal" usage conditions then similar cooling capacity ought to be abe to look after your engine. Now if you are going everywhere in low range, 1st gear and 6k RPM then you deserve to blow it up and boil it to death.....

[landkeeper]

just a thought give je a ring and see what they spec on the cooling front for their big v8 defender conversions

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Well, today was a "Back of fag packet" Plan. Remember the 5.2 has a target temp of 80 degrees +/- 5

Off with its head at a specialists in Crawley, and 2 hrs later, plus lighter wallet ....

18 5" louvres in middle row, 13 (my lucky number ) each side = 44 5" louvres in total.

The logic having played with heat strips and research was 18 x cover the main centre of the engine, and the 2 x 13 are exhaust manifolds area

Had to remove the Underneath Strengtheners, these are going to have to go back in but be very heavily modified - another little job, as the bonnett "Booooingggs"

up and down on hard accelleration

So, what has the EWP done

Without the EWP driving on road, guages showed 88-100+ Degrees with both SPAL fans on most of the time...off road

nightmare with 100 degrees + and having to stop

With the EWP. Guages on road showed 85-95, again both fans often on a LOT, and off road 85-near 100

Now, with the 44 liouvres

Guages showing 78 !!!! ydegrees es no fans and 78 crusing along to 85. never got above 85, fan number 2 didn't come on at ALL, fan one only a couple of times.

So, before 88-100+ and fans on all the time ...now 78-85 fans hardly at all

Just need to see what its like off road now, oh and repaint the bonnet.

All in all EWP very very good and helps to cool water temps, and the 44 louvresdefo defo help let out the heat

Worthwhile trip, which I have worked out (filled up before going and on way back same station 4 miles from home) 12.8 MPG

or just over 2 miles to a litre.....er...whichever sounds least worse

Happy with todays work, straight in all directions and lovely workmanship, took just over 2 hrs to do the 44

Nige

[zardos]

Now you have a super fast windscreen demister in the Winter :-)

And did I hear you say time for a nitrous kit now that the engine temp problem is sorted, so you can get even more power

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Bowie69]

Twin chargers for sure, the whiney type that is

Tis an impressive improvement, in fact the louvres seem to have made the most difference % wise?

*edit* I am now beginning to wonder if underbonnet temperatures were actually causing the temp sender to read high because of heat soak from the air into the inlet manifold, so rather than reading water temperature they were reading a mix of air and water?

[Daan]

I still reckon there is another problem somewhere that just hasn't been identified -I can't see why my 4.0 putting out ~240-250BHP should be putting out so much less heat than a 5.2 putting out 330BHP.

The power output is 32% more, and therefore your cooling requirement is 32% more. Its an old fashioned petrol engine, so 1/3rd goes to mechanical power, 1/3rd to the exhaust, and 1/3rd to cooling. any increase to power, will also mean the same increase in heat.

Anyway, tidy job on the louvres!

Daan

[Bowie69]

Understood of course.... maybe a 90 engine bay is just too small and not so well ventilated as an RRC.

[Davo]

Good to see you got a decent improvement. Maybe the Defender engine bay is indeed a little metal box that can't let the heat out too well. (That's good to know - I'm supposed to be putting a V8 into my 109). How much heat were you getting through the bulkhead when you were having trouble?

When my main added-on gauge reads 80c, the stock gauge has the needle in the middle. I was surprised to see that an old Smiths gauge could actually show something useful! Sure enough, it goes past the middle if things get to 85c and 90c.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

A further update ...............

I absolutely hated driving about with a part primered bonnet, so last weekend did a tad of DIY spraying as I have srpay equipement and proper air mask / cannister etc so I can use 2 pack ....

(Bits on the bonnet are bits of garage roof chipboard which falls down all the time (another job on the to do list lol)

And there I was thinking "Nearly job done (need to make and fix new bonnet strengtheners to the bonnet)......when I had a thought ............

I have always either run a thermostat, OR a restrictor plate, but, now I have a EWP do I need either ?

The thermostat or restrictor plate is to stop cavitation :

quick google =

Cavitation occurs when a pump / impeller in housing runs at high RPM and the cooling system isn’t at full pressure.

This means either the engine is cold, or your radiator cap is faulty. Cheap coolant works by causing a hard black Phosphate coating to form on the surface of the aluminium.

During cavitation, this layer is knocked off the aluminium by imploding vapour bubbles. A new layer has to form, using up a small amount of metal in the process.

Over a few months, this can destroy a water pump or a timing cover

Additionally no thermostat will make engines run too cold making the above worse, a thermostat is there to regulate temps and assist in vehicle heater.

A restrictor plate is used to give a balance of engine heating / temeratures and aviod caviation as above

Now, I have a EWP, so the engine temp is controlled by the controller target set point which controls the pump speed = controls the temp, so its the "New" thermostat.

The system heats up FASTER now then when it had a thermstat, so the Q was can I bin the restrictor plate ?

Yes was the answer from EWP "ABSOLUTELY YES"....I also checked with a V8 engine guru = "YES" again was the answer

This means I will be shortly removing the 21mm restrictor plate (Largest recomended for any Rover V8) and that then gives a freer flowing 34mm ID !

Will report back, but thats going to help thing HUGELY I have a feeling !

Nige

[Rangy35]

Very happy for you, cant wait for the next update.

[B reg 90]

A further update ...............

I absolutely hated driving about with a part primered bonnet, so last weekend did a tad of DIY spraying as I have srpay equipement and proper air mask / cannister etc so I can use 2 pack ....

20140920_085136.jpg

(Bits on the bonnet are bits of garage roof chipboard which falls down all the time (another job on the to do list lol)

And there I was thinking "Nearly job done (need to make and fix new bonnet strengtheners to the bonnet)......when I had a thought ............

I have always either run a thermostat, OR a restrictor plate, but, now I have a EWP do I need either ?

The thermostat or restrictor plate is to stop cavitation :

quick google =

Now, I have a EWP, so the engine temp is controlled by the controller target set point which controls the pump speed = controls the temp, so its the "New" thermostat.

The system heats up FASTER now then when it had a thermstat, so the Q was can I bin the restrictor plate ?

Yes was the answer from EWP "ABSOLUTELY YES"....I also checked with a V8 engine guru = "YES" again was the answer

This means I will be shortly removing the 21mm restrictor plate (Largest recomended for any Rover V8) and that then gives a freer flowing 34mm ID !

Will report back, but thats going to help thing HUGELY I have a feeling !

Nige

mmmm, I don't agree with this unless you have provided key data about how the electric pump performs in YOUR system, namely:

• Pump inlet pressure
• Pump inlet temperature
• Pump outlet pressure

All the above need to be at pump max speed with the engine HOT, i.e, hottest pump inlet pressure as this is the worst case. Only when they have this data can they calculate the pump Net Positive Suction Head Available (NPSHa) at the pump inlet and compare this to the Net Positive Suction Head Required (NPSHr) by the pump at the running speed and flow rate it is doing. NPSHa needs to be above NPSHr for the pump to not cavitate. In fact as cavitation energy with water is quite high (water en trains air easily) you need quite a margin. Typically in the oil industry you would look for a minimum margin of NPSHa over NPSHr of 1 meter of liquid head (the pressure at the bottom of a column of liquid 1 meter high, in our case water ). However as you will not run continuously at max engine load you could accept a lower margin.

Net Positive Suction Head - A measure of how close a liquid is to boiling at a defined pressure and temperature. For example water at 100 C and atmospheric pressure will boil - it has a NPSH of zero.

NPSHr - The NPSH required by the pump varies depending on a few factors:

1/. Pump speed - higher pump rpm's requires a higher NPSH.

2/. Flow rate - the higher the flow rate through the pump at a given pump rpm the higher the NPSH required to prevent cavitation. Pump flow rate is set by the system resistance to flow. In your case as pump is just circulating water back to the pump inlet the friction losses in the pipes, radiator, etc, set this. If your pump is cavitating you can increase the system resistance (fit a smaller restrictor plate in the thermostat) to reduce flow and hence the NPSHr

3/. Pump inlet pressure - If you increase the inlet pressure the boiling point gets higher. So you can fit a higher pressure radiator cap (don't forget that you need a lower air volume in the header tank to get the system to pressurize to a higher pressure) so that the system runs at a higher pressure when hot.

4/.Pump inlet temperature - the lower the inlet pressure the further the liquid is away from boiling. So a lower temperature thermostat (if you have one),and/ or a bigger radiator would drop inlet temperatures.

In short unless EWP have the above data their reply is a guess. It may be an educated guess based on experience, but again it is still a guess. You hoping to prevent your engine over heating based on this guess. I'd ask EWP for the pump curve (including NPSHr), do some testing and actually work it out.

Adrian