Any idea what could do this to a clutch?

[jackbw28]

Hi all, another question.

On my last trip in my rebuilt 200tdi powered 110, I needed a tow for the 1st time ever!

I have a short bell-housing R380 fitted. The clutch is a standard tdi item with a slim release bearing.

The vehicle drove fine for the 1st 5000km with the new gearbox and clutch; then...

1st symptoms were a very tight gear change after pulling off a highway going out of town at the start of a 2wk 4000km trip, vehicle was fully laden.
I wasn't in a position/place to do much and forced her through 2 hours stop-start traffic before finding somewhere to pull over and check there was oil in the box, it was full of MTF-94 as expected.

I then checked the clutch wasn't dragging, as best I could and it seemed fine - so I drove off and the gear-change went back to normal. I suspect now the clutch was dragging badly but stopped when I stopped.

This tight gearshift came back every now and then for the next few days but was usually cured by a 5 minute stop with the engine off. Although it slowly developed a rattle in idle with the clutch up; then an intermittent grinding noise started when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. All the while I was working my way further and further away for civilisation... My 2wks leave is precious and didn't want to turn back!

Eventually the tight gearshift got worse to the point where I couldn't select any gear at all... Problem, as I was a good few miles from the nearest tar road. I tried bleeding the clutch etc but in the end I drove the quickest route back to the nearest tar road with no clutch at all, starting the vehicle in 1st and matching road speed to revs as best I could.

I then decided to drive to the nearest large town where I could find a half-decent garage, spare parts and a hotel. I hated it having no clutch, but managed 200km mostly in 4th. Then, finally it lost all drive - no noise or bang or anything dramatic, just no drive.

This resulted in a getting towed another 140km the next day (which took 6 hours!!). But I had made it to somewhere where I could drop the box, and had a spare britpart clutch waiting (all I could get).

I was relieved when the box came out and I saw the state of the clutch (was dreading mainshaft failure). The photos of the clutch are below and even though this happened a few weeks ago, I'm still at a loss as to the cause. It was a new Borg & beck clutch, had done no more than 5000Km at the time and was fitted the correct way round. I was driving very gently the whole time etc...

So what do you think? Personally I can only suspect component failure, but have never seen a clutch fail like that before, esp on a standard car.

[ejparrott]

Don't know what the cause is, but sending it back to B&B would be a good idea, they may know something

[Tanuki]

Doesn't look like it's been slipping (which would have suggested that something hydraulic or mechanical had been stopping the clutch from 'clearing' properly) - my instinct is that one of the springs had for some reason weakened and then escaped from the driven-plate.

What caused the spring to fail? Could be a component defect. OTOH I've seen similar failures on "Taliban Taxi" minicabs caused by drivers who insisted on moving off from stationary without using the throttle and lugging the engine down to a sub-400RPM misfire, or driving around town in 5th at 20MPH. "Saving fuel" by using low-RPM is silly when it wipes-out a clutch/DMF.

[western]

Is the bronze bush in back of the crank intact ~not broken, mine split & it jammed the centre which ripped out

[jackbw28]

Interesting. I would like to send it back to see what they think but its just not worth the cost from here.

Bronze bush recently replaced is indeed still intact - fortunately. It was also wetted with oil as per the manual.

It certainly wasn't slipping when driving, however I wouldn't really have known about it if it was dragging very slightly - but indeed after removing it there are no sighns of slipping. In-fact I am now worried my new clutch is dragging slightly...

I suppose I do use low revs a bit, though not frequently or excessively low. I have been driving LRs for a good few years and never had this before so don't think its down to driving style (and hope not) . One rivet on the driven-plate centre has popped - not sure if that happened first or not though. I did consider too much pedal travel at one point, to the extent the clutch fingers came into contact with the driven plate and damaged it. Though, if this were the case I expect I would have heard it when I first depressed the pedal after installation. Certainly spring falling out is an idea, but again why?? Ive seen broken springs before, but usually they remain within the plate.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Borg n Beck are now made in India, the brand name has been bought to trade under, I think its fair to say that in the past they were regarded as good..........

Some of the pattern clutches I looked at when designing my heavy duty stuff were truly frightening, often the plates that clamped

the spings in were not uniform, meaning the entire plate was out of balance and some of the workmanship was truly dreadful at closer inspection.

Its an issue with aftermarket stuff, siving out the real junk from the decvent, and brand names now are worth less than ever.

Did you know Lucas - no longer exists, and Intermotor which everyone thought was poor - no longer exists as such, both lucas and Intermotor are barnd names owned by SMP....

you can (as with me with a trade account) order a part and be asked "What box branding would you like it in"

LUK are still a decent quality clutch unit, or maybe look at one of mine

[jackbw28]

Come to think of it actually;

The driven plate would have got a hell of a lot of shock loading when it wouldn't release properly - starting in 1st etc. Also when changing gear with no clutch, I still depressed the pedal in some vain hope it would work... And sometimes it did (a bit) and it didn't re-engage smoothly at all upon releasing the pedal. At other times it just wouldn't work at all. I reckon that explains the final failure, to some degree at least.

However, what caused it to intermittently not to release is a mystery. I imagine that is more controlled by the pressure plate, which upon inspection is fine. I am still using it on the vehicle now as it looked better than the new britpart pressure plate I pre-ordered.

[jackbw28]

Indeed Hybrid from Hell,

Since this incident I did read that somewhere... When I bought it I did think I was getting a proper bit of kit. I do know the importance of it and try hard to source OEM spec parts. But, thought B&B were safe.

Quite a shame to here about more and more of this, and sadly that is probably the problem. Just only 5000Km is ridiculous and I'd like to be sure i didn't f'up the fitting somehow!

Well, I intend to replace the B&B pressure plate and britpart driven plate thats currently in there soon, don't ever want to be stranded like that again! I have managed to find a Valeo branded unit locally, but need to import the 'special' release bearing anyway so will probably import the whole lot.
Another issue is with illegal fakes, especially where I am - even worse than the brand name being sold!

So, yes, I'm interested in yours! Just had a look at your website - very good Buut, despite what your website says is a paddle clutch really that road friendly? I don't do any challenge stuff myself...

One thing I would really like is a steel release bearing holder. Do you know if it will hold the 'skinny' release bearing I need? I can dig out the part number if required.

Jack

[CwazyWabbit]

A spring falling out of the driven plate would give you the intermittent lock up when it jammed between the driven plate and pressure plate, I had this happen on a previous vehicle and it locked it up solid.

If you look at the springs that have fallen out they definitely have rubbed a lot after falling out so this may have been what happened.

[western]

Valeo clutch parts in my 200tdi, heavy duty friction plate with 8 damper springs, the part numbers are in this forum, a search for valeo clutch should find them, make sure the correct release bearing is fitted, as it is shorter than the lt77 version, I found out the hard way also readjust the clutch pedal setting, if wrong it will cause clutch slip or drag.

[sighnbox]

Hi Jack sorry you having problems chap hope all well besides that

Pretty certain that's what I brought from mine when it was done seven odd years ago as well western and all still fine

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

One thing I would really like is a steel release bearing holder. Do you know if it will hold the 'skinny' release bearing I need? I can dig out the part number if required.

Jack

99.9% sure yes, but part number even bettererer

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

PS

Valeo are Good, LUK even better

[squaddiefox]

I always try and use LUK if I can. After sales/warranty work due to bad parts is good. Or an auto. Don't need a clutcht then...

[jackbw28]

Thanks for the recommendations folks,

Hybrid from hell; I'll get you that part number a bit later this eve so you can check to see if the skinny release bearing will fit your ss holder. Still a bit undecided about paddle/LUK clutch but either way I'll need to cobble together a parts order from the UK.

Will update.

[western]

clutch release bearing for the Stumpy R380 fitted to any of the pre 300tdi engines is LR part UTJ100210

in the list of parts here http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/manual-gearboxes/short-bellhousing-r380.html

[sighnbox]

Bloody hell Jack you still not sorted chap can't be easy out there where you are hope you sort it chap

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I have found a B&B plate I bought to do research....I'll do some pics to show why its so poor and what to look out for on a plate when buying tomm

[jackbw28]

Not going too badly Paul, got a BritPart clutch in at the moment which is actually working for the time being, so at least I have a working vehicle which gives me time to sort out a proper solution.

Thanks Ralph for the bearing number, that is the one. I had it filed somewhere...

Oh wow, thanks Hybrid from hell - that will be very interesting, I look forward to seeing them. Also did you manage to confirm if your release bearing carrier/holder will work with the bearing part number above kindly supplied by Ralph? No rush really though, it'll be a couple of weeks before I order.

On another slightly related note, I noticed dot 4 leaking down my brake pedal last night when I got home... I'm pretty sure this is a new development as I did watch the level and opened the cover on the pedal-box a few times during the clutch episode and found no leak. I'm going away this wkend but fortunately managed to source a TRW cylinder locally and fitted this evening. I'm of the mind TRW are still good, it cost 5* a birtpart equivalent!

Changed the slave during my rebuild but left the master as it was only 3 years old...

Jack

[sighnbox]

I had the same problem last year Jack with the fluid down the pedal. I have TRW in mine Jack and is fine replaced all my cylinders at the same time ...I had a brand new 300tdi clutch pedal what I was planning on fitting sometime anyway then had the fluid down the pedal thing and then a drip on the passenger back wheel cylinder. The final straw was braking hard in the wet and ending up sliding sideways down the road SCAREY ..........Yep that back passenger cylinder has deff failed....... So to save any messing around , Fitted the new clutch pedal, new master, new slave and two new back brake cylinders (The front calipers were new anyway).....So now my clutch s nice and smooth with the new cylinders and the better 300idi pedal and all so my brakes work ....I Don't slide sideways down the road now......

[Rangie46]

I had a similar experience with a Borg and beck clutch last year with my old 200tdi with lt77, hadn't even done a thousand miles when the clutch let go and left me stranded here's a pic of the clutch that let go took a while to get replaced under warranty but they replaced it in the end, quality ain't what it used to be

[Mo Murphy]

Bloody hell ! ?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

OK

Had a few mins so here you go !!

On this "OEM" plate the springs are tight on one and loose as anything on other here, and varied all the way around !!, not a great start - this was a "Premium Clutch Plate" from a "well known" Brand name ...JUNK !

Now this is important, very very Important, this is the centrwe spring plates fixing to the centre plate, its badly waroped, this will never "Touch" but should be even all around...this is way out this means it will be out of balance and worse give a judery uptake

Here are 2 x of ours, 200.300 and a TD5 version level as a level think ...

Here is a "OEM" Clutch release bearing, made in several cheap nasty parts, with the daft fold on the thrust face, In use this face gets ALL the pressures, and this means that it will move and try to peel away at that overlap . madness and erm "Junk"

Underneath the OEM one, thats a gap that will / can fill with whatever ....and it will prematurely wreck the release ....So, on the OEM one how big / easy is that gap ?

big and easy, same for debris to get it ...

n competition use the plastic centres erm "Can Melt" .....

Thereis some REAL junk out there, don't be fooled by "Brand Names". There are even differing "Grades" ie a "Budget range" and a "Premium Range" (although some premium stuff is horrible lol

Hope this is of interst

nige

[Nigelw]

I was in the store a few months back and ended up buying a BP HD clutch kit, it was better made than the BB and an unbranded white box thing labelled 2/300Tdi.

Still sitting in my kitchen waiting to be fitted though

[cackshifter]

Slightly (Ok more than slightly) OT, but the 'good' picture of the centres is a paddle clutch if I'm not mistaken. I know these are becoming more readily available, are hard wearing etc etc etc, and was wondering what effect they have on the flywheel - usually it has to be something bad with a normal clutch to wear out the flywheel if the clutch plate itself doesn't get stupidly worn; do these tend to machine a groove in it?