Setting up diff

[chris2010]

About to fit a ashcroft locker into my 300 tdi rear axle,

Where can I find information into checking and setting up diff ?

Iv flocked through the Haynes manual and nothing

If anyone has any helpful tips will really appreciate it

Many thanks

[Bowie69]

This is an old-ish guide now, but has worked for me: http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/ARB_Locker.htm

[landroversforever]

The info is all in the workshop manual I believe.... However my money went to Nigel at Megasquirt-V8. They build them perfectly for a great price. He's done both my diffs for my 90 rebuild . I'm should add, I'm not linked to him in any way other than a VERY satisfied customer . Also, its not that I'm not capable of doing a diff... but some things are worth paying an expert for IMHO.

[chris2010]

What sort of money is realistic money for getting the job done through someone who's done these before ?

[Anderzander]

^ that's the issue I'd have - the cost.

I'd love to get an ashcroft atb and have Nige build it into a diff - but currently I could only afford to buy the diff .....

.....which often leaves me thinking of if I should have a go myself.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

The problem is get it wrong and it can cost a LOT of money.

Key with diff building is everything clean, and then getting the main key areas right.

These are :

Pinion Height - these are set within quite a tolerance at the factory, and some outside tolerance.

This is in simple terms the position the pinion gears sit and mesh with the crownwheel. if this is wrong - ie too high to

low diffs can grumble and whine, and if too far out will damage gear mesh permenantly, and if the gears are way out dmage is easy as a result ...

To set pinion height you HAVE to use a height block tool...and have a selection of pinion height and preload shims....there

are a HUGE number of shims of varying thicknesses, and the costs of each are around £10 +/- and we have pretty much every

shim in stock !. Only rarely do we have to bite the bullet and use a new shim, its often finding the right one out of what we have ...

Pinion Preload. This is simply how "Tight" the assembled pinion spacer shims bearings etc are when turned, agauin must be with a

tolerance level, to tight - wreck the bearings - to loose damage to Pinion and erm wreck the bearings. no special tools needed, but

again vast range of shims £8-£12 +/- each and more thicknesses than you would belive possible !...we have bought and use a FOUR decimal,

point digital vernier to measure shim thickness on builds ...

Backlash. Simply the amount of freeplay rocking the crownwheel / pinion gears, and KEY is NO TIGHT SPOTS. you need apart

from practise lol a dial gauge and time, and although we have special tools it can and is often done by many without any.

I have been sadly in anorak mode recently, enclosed is a working document - these are the various shims / part numbers and thicknesses

covering the Long Nose LR Diff set up. This is because there are shims that are peculiar to certain models / years etc. These are ALL for the

standard long nose, the earlier 2 part series diff shims are not in here as thet only fit those diffs, this is if you like "Our bread and butter" diffs,

so we wnated to make a definateive list of what can be used....this is still not 100% complete, more I have found to be added !!

But, if your going to have a go, then you may need this list to find the shim you need to get to 0.0 on pinion heights, most (not all) are still avaikable from LR

DO NOT BUY NON GENUINE SHIMS FFS !!!!!!!

Shim database (version 1).pdf

We will build up diffs with labour £60 plus parts.

We will not build anyones diffs with anything non Timken bearings Corteco or genuine seals and gen flanges.

We also use wolf cwp bolts and upgraded carrier bolts...and of course can peg casing to protect the investment....

To be honest building up a diff is not a DIY job, there is an element of HAVING to have special tools, and the build is actually a very precise process.

It never ceases to amaze me the peeps we build up diffs for, these are 4x4 businesses, well known , and top drivers who hasve scratch built

some serioulsy clever trucks - both just chuck diffs at us as they know enough not to do them lol

Pegging IMHO is a dmaned fine idea too, as the amount of money your putting into the insides is well worth protecting, now on

casing 191, zero failures , yup, ZERO, which amazes us too - we would have expected a fair number to have been destoyed in heavy use, one day

I am sure someone will, I have no doubt, but even then the lack of breakages shows the reason to peg

Have tried to answer this with sensible tech info and hopefully it doesn't just come over as a blatent advert

Nige

[Bowie69]

^ that's the issue I'd have - the cost.

I'd love to get an ashcroft atb and have Nige build it into a diff - but currently I could only afford to buy the diff .....

.....which often leaves me thinking of if I should have a go myself.

This was my problem.

Nige -I thought there was no need to set pinion height if you were using the original ring and pinion in the same casing?

Anyways, I did mine many years ago now, worked fine, and wouldn't hesitate doing another.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

If you are using the original Pinion and CW then technically the height should be right as when left the factory

Unfortunately there are 2 x things here

1. Its LR we are talking about, and the build care and quality is often hit and miss, we have seen numerous heights which were

waaaay out from where they should be, it was the factory / idiot on build line doing a "Its friday that will do" attitude

2. The tolerences ie the acceptable linits for +/- are wide, wider than they should / can be, we build to 0.0 that is we try to build

and get the pinion heights SPOT ON not too high (within limits) and not too low (within limits) spot on. We do this as thuis is just

one tolerence. there are others, and if you build up a diff within all the factory tolerances say at one end iof the spectrum and then

at the other the 2 x diffs would be vastly different. If you build a duiff to spot on the target tolerances you get a stronger better diff.

which takes time and a bucket of shims and a gallon of coffee siometimes !

We have even had the situation where when we took a std casing and its pinion (which was way out from factory) we could not

get to 0.0. In the end we used a different casing and bingo. !

Bear in mind we do this as a business and we trade on reputation and recomendation and hence we set thediffs to as close to

perfection as we can - that what we are being paid for, a diyer will not get to this level without lots of money spent on digital verniers

feeler gauges and volimes of sims, and hence the "Tolerances". BUT the harder you are going to work the diff the better the build

should be so that when it settles down theres not a floppy pinions and loads of backlash

Also if you change the head or tail bearings there is a risk unless you use the SAME manufactuier that you pinion height and preload will change and need resetting.

As a example we always use Timken, we had a diff come in that was professionally built elsewhere - pinion height spot on, but had water damage, the head bearing

was a NTN we changes it for a new timken and the hieght was then out by more than we would expected !!. shim change later and it was back to 0.0

so, you dare not assume the pinion height is either within toleraqnce from factory and defo will nhot be 0.0

Nice rustling noise this anoraks making eh ?

Nige

[Bowie69]

Yep, but does confirm that for a DIYer, you only need a dial gauge, some blue, and some patience, and you end up pretty satisfied with the result

Not taking anything from you at all Nige, but I do enjoy challenges, and this was one I wanted to do -next is a gearbox rebuild, but not got round to that yet

[ejparrott]

My Salisbury still seems to be going ok. Would like to get another casing and have another ago from top to bottom (and I need another one for my other 109 anyway) but something I discovered while doing it. The workshop manual gives a clear description of markings on the end of the pinion, in relation to pinion height - neither of my pinions had the markings the workshop manual describes!

[RedLineMike]

I'm still trying nige........

[pat_pending]

My Salisbury still seems to be going ok. Would like to get another casing and have another ago from top to bottom (and I need another one for my other 109 anyway) but something I discovered while doing it. The workshop manual gives a clear description of markings on the end of the pinion, in relation to pinion height - neither of my pinions had the markings the workshop manual describes!

IIRC an unmarked pinion is spot on in terms of it's manufactured tolerance, pinions marked + or - followed by a figure are either above+ or below- the nominal design measurement.

A pinion marked + 3thou would have to have 3thou subtracted from it's measured height as it's already 3thou higher than a "standard" pinion and vice versa for a pinion marked - as that would be lower.

[ejparrott]

Quite possibly, my point was sort of that although there's a method stated in the manual, it seems not to always have been followed. One of the pinions, and I can't remember if it's the on ein the axle or the shed, has a marking down the spindle, think it was a +2 or something...certainly not where LR specified, so extra care is required setting it up, and for that reason, makes it so much harder for the DIY-er to do if they don't know EXACTLY what they're dealing with

[Bowie69]

Remember a Salisbury is completely different kettle of fish

[discomikey]

if only i could afford peggage on my rear diff! im not afraid to mess about with the carrier bearings and backlash but when it comes to the pinion i try to leave well alone if the diff is set right to start with. if i needed to have one completely set up it would be shipped off to mr Nige, along with a few mr bump plasters for him just in case!

Edit: i have "lashed" together diffs in the past and none have broken as of yet (well only some of the planet gears but thats a different story) but for putting behind much power and abuse i would want it "right"

[Anderzander]

Lol genius on the plasters.

[Vogler]

On 9/22/2014 at 8:54 AM, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

 

But, if your going to have a go, then you may need this list to find the shim you need to get to 0.0 on pinion heights, most (not all) are still available from LR

DO NOT BUY NON GENUINE SHIMS FFS !!!!!!!

 

Given HfH's advice in capital letters, it's probably a no brainer to use original shims. But which parameter is of most importance? Toughness or thickness?

Here's why I'm asking:

During the rebuild of my front diff and LT230, I've noticed that Land Rover shims are significantly harder when compared to Ashcroft's shim kits. If you need a couple of goes in determining shim sizes and need to drive out the bearing race by punching on the shims (mild steel drift, used if press was impossible), the Ashcroft ones become squashed and bent, whereas the original ones come out of it almost unscathed.

My plan was to determine shim sizes using the kit, and replace them by original LR ones to finish the build. But LR seems to have let go any ambition of delivering quality items.  Why build to certain tolerances if you can build to intolerances? 🙄 2 out of 3 shims ordered, with LR picking labels and in LR packaging, were out of spec:

- The front diff pinion height shim should have measured 2,255mm (0.0886", thickest one available). The contraption that came out of the original LR package measured 2,195mm to 2,245mm within a quarter circumference (0.0864" - 0.0883") . So it wasn't only thinner, but also saw a 0,05mm/2 thou difference. I thought of ordering a thicker one and have it machined, but a thicker size doesn't seem to exist and with these 'tolerances' I'd hesitate to stack.

- The same order contained a fixed length tube for the intermediate gear of the LT230. IEJ500180 should have been 58.75mm, but measured 58.82 - that's 3 thou over size.

*rant mode on* How on earth can one do a proper rebuild if ordering correctly sized shims becomes a gambling game?  *rant mode off*

In defence of the Ashcroft shims: their thickness is faultless. A stack of three different shims saw a variance of 0,01mm (0,0003"), which might have been due to oil in between. Has anybody ever had issues with Ashcroft shims?

Joris

[Snagger]

On 9/23/2014 at 4:05 PM, Bowie69 said:

Remember a Salisbury is completely different kettle of fish

Setting the pinion is similar, but setting the carrier needs shims and takes patience and either a good bearing puller that won't damage the new bearings when you remove them to adjust shims, or a second set of bearings that you can ream out to slip on and off the carrier easily for the set up, replacing on the final assembly with the new set.  There are guides on how to measure the total endfloat and determine how much goes on each side from one assessment without shims, which is how the factory does it, but I’d have to look for that.

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, Vogler said:

 

My plan was to determine shim sizes using the kit, and replace them by original LR ones to finish the build. But LR seems to have let go any ambition of delivering quality items.  Why build to certain tolerances if you can build to intolerances? 🙄 2 out of 3 shims ordered, with LR picking labels and in LR packaging, were out of spec:

- The front diff pinion height shim should have measured 2,255mm (0.0886", thickest one available). The contraption that came out of the original LR package measured 2,195mm to 2,245mm within a quarter circumference (0.0864" - 0.0883") . So it wasn't only thinner, but also saw a 0,05mm/2 thou difference. I thought of ordering a thicker one and have it machined, but a thicker size doesn't seem to exist and with these 'tolerances' I'd hesitate to stack.

- The same order contained a fixed length tube for the intermediate gear of the LT230. IEJ500180 should have been 58.75mm, but measured 58.82 - that's 3 thou over size.

*rant mode on* How on earth can one do a proper rebuild if ordering correctly sized shims becomes a gambling game?  *rant mode off*

 

Joris

Indian engineering to a tee.

[Bowie69]

Holy thread revival batman!

[Vogler]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

Indian engineering to a tee.

I'm not a native English speaker, unfortunately I can only try and guess what you're saying here. I assume that a similar expression would include 'anorak' 😉 ?

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

Holy thread revival batman

Agreed, but still thought it was the appropriate place.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Vogler

[Gazzar]

I think it's more a comment on the quality, or lack of it, found on some Indian made products.

There is a view that repeatable precision parts are difficult for Indian manufacturers, as the quality control engineers aren't respected; there isn't an environment where quality permeates the organisation.

This results in parts that vary significantly, even though they shouldn't.

[Vogler]

Ah, I see. I'm afraid I have to disappoint you here...

 

[Snagger]

That is disappointing.  Expected of Indian and Chinese parts, but not European standards.  But LR has not been a European company for quite some time now.