xychix Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 As you can read elsewhere (somethings with axles and seals) I'm happy to have the 109 moving again....However when I started it I noticed the clutch pedel is 90% free travel and only then opening the clutch.I'm 100% sure this wasn't the case when I parked it 5 weeks ago!The clutch and gearbox have been replaced by the previous owner 2.000 km's ago. (i've bought the car last summer).What could this play be? It's now hard to engage gears, when clutch pedal 100% pressed it doesn't move so clutch does open, releasing the clutch now likely results in a tilted engine as it suddenly grips fully.How to adjust this? I was hoping for a cable but it seems hydrolics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Series 3 clutch is fully hydraulic, Series 2 has semi mechanical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 Yes sorry, should have reported this is a 109 series III (1980) anyone an idea how to 'adjust' the pedal? or it is more likely some lever in the clutch is bend while standing still? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 It goes low if the master cylinder seal is taking in air on the up stroke. But it still has some feel? But it is a 'sitting around' fault. Difficult to decide by description alone. If there is oil around the master boot then it's a fair bet that it is the fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 It goes low if the master cylinder seal is taking in air on the up stroke. But it still has some feel? But it is a 'sitting around' fault. Difficult to decide by description alone. If there is oil around the master boot then it's a fair bet that it is the fault. So bleeding the system would be a good start, if it happens again start looking for leaking hose or seals...? And yes the last little bit has pressure, enough to go from neutral to 1st with a running engine and no weird noises. Also with pedal down in 1st it won't move, so it is somehow opening the plates. On another website i read: You need to adjust the pushrod that works the master cylinder to give about 6mm play at the clutch pedal and there should be 1.5mm between the pushrod itself and the master cylinder piston. I might have way over 6mm play, so this pushrod I need to find... any hints from where to search? inside the car? under the hood? high / low on the firewall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Series Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Remove small plate on pedal box above clutch pedal under the bonnet Modified mine to make it easier to adjust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 If you suck-bled it rather than pump the pedal it may come back, if the master cylinder seal really is taking in air. It really was a; "have clutch" and then had; "full drive so grab the key before it drives through a bench" sort of thing for me. Its just a more likely failing than the bearing giving out. But I think there can be an arm failure, but that should just loose the whole clutch action. It's unfortunate that landrover aren't big on handy inspection plates underneath. If you have the adjuster rod cover plate off (as above) you can pop the dust seal to see if the cylinder is wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 It sounds like a slow leak to me, from one of the cylinders (some brands have reputations for leaking from new) or a perished flexible hose between the engine and pedal box. When bleeding, try to have the car nose elevated so that air in the slave will go to the bleed nipple rather than hide against the piston. Failed forks are an LT77/R380 issue on Defenders, Discoverys and Range Rovers. You'll never break a SIII fork. It is a hydraulic issue, which is good because you don't need to remove the engine or transmission to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 Thanks all, I've opened the bonnet to take pictures. Only to find out that the cover plate on the master cilinder isn't there, the rubber on the cilinder is gone and the fluid was so deep in the bottle that I could barely reach it with my finger. Is the external rubber seal only to keep carp out or does it have a real function? (pictures follow as soon as thunder here is over so Ive got stable internet) for now the steps to take it seem: - 1 refill clutch - 2 bleed% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 The rubber cap is just a dust cap - it' doesn't seal anything. However, the claim by the previous owner that they recently installed it and that fact that the cap is missing points to bad parts or bad fitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Snagger, thanks for the advice, not sure if the master cilinder was replaced. clutch and gearbox where. Will first try to source some fluids then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Found some dot 4 fluid. is that an acceptable mix with the stuff already in there (likely dot 3??/) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 all the DOT's are compatible, assuming sealed bottle no water etc, but for DOT5, which very few people use in my experience. You'd be just as well to open the lower bleed nipple and drain through at least 2 full reservoirs full, get rid of all the old fluid. Have a mate with a spanner on the bleed nipple while you keep the res topped up. You've no idea how old the fluid is, and it may have absorbed water. If you don't know how long the master and slave have been in there though, you are running the risk of killing one or other or both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 how does flushing the system kill the cilinders? would that mean breaking the bleed nipples ? I'll first top it up and see if I can bleed the master on my own, just to see if it changes anything at all, then flush later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Flushing the system won't kill them, but suddenly bringing in to use cylinders that haven't moved for a while does. Frequently fitting a new master or slave only will also kill the other one...just the way it goes I'm afraid. I always now change both master and slave if either is suspect, and frequently the flexi hose too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Just top it up and pump the pedal a few times, it may well come back... mine does this occasionally(!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 I don't have flexi hose. it's all copper from master to slave. I opened bleed tingy (what a bugger to reach!!!!) and had a hose in a empy and dry beer bottle. Pumped trough about 2 full refills, at start it pumped free and almost no fluids trough, then some dirt sputtered out and i could solidly pump trough the fluid. had the wife finally hold down the pedal while it took me up to 10 mins to tighten the bugger. Now all seems a bit better, clutch starts squeenking halfway the pedal so I've got more pedal response now. Still nohwhere like a normal car but hell it ain't a normal car. it feels drivable (as it gets in a 109 III) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Flushing the system won't kill them, but suddenly bringing in to use cylinders that haven't moved for a while does. Frequently fitting a new master or slave only will also kill the other one...just the way it goes I'm afraid. I always now change both master and slave if either is suspect, and frequently the flexi hose too. 5 weeks should be no problem I assume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The issue with "master/cylinders failing after bleeding" or "fail after being unused for a while" is usually because under normal circumstances the pistons only move over a small proportion of the total cylinder length. In the 'dead space' which the pistons don't visit regularly, old water-contaminated fluid corrodes/pits the cylinder-bores and you get an accumulation of grot - rust, old bits of worn seal etc. Then when you have a need to bleed, you push the pistons so they sweep the 'dead-space' - the seals then get traumatized on the corroded cylinder-barrels and/or the accumulated grot gets under the edges and damages them. It also explains why often if you have a failed slave-cylinder and you replace it, the master-cylinder often fails shortly after [or vice versa]. In some circumstances over-vigorous pedal pumping involved in bleeding can actually cause the master-cylinder seal to turn insice out [Vauxhall Astras have a habit of doing this]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 If the fluid line is one continuous rigid pipe, you have a botched vehicle - there should be a flexible hose to allow for engine vibration and movement on the mounts. A solid pipe will suffer from fatigue and will crack. That might be the cause and location of the apparent leak. Best get some proper pipe work for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Is that available as 1 replacement part? solid pipe with flex endpoint? Should I replace all pipework or just fit a 10 cm hose at the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 There's a hose for the Series 3, and a bracket on the side of the footwell that it fits too. There's 8" or so of solid pipe from the slave to the flexi, then 10" or so of flexi hose, then it's solid to the slave. The 90/110 setup is slightly different and better in my book having fought with no end of Series slave cylinders, they have the flexi at the slave end. I suppose there's no reason not to fit a Series the same way, but the important thing is to make sure there is a flexi, otherwise the slave moves with the engine the master doesn't move with the bodywork, so something has to give! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 The top end of the copper clutch pipe is connected to the back of the engine block somehow (with a triangular plate) I'm missing a bolt there. Can anyone lead me to drawings that explode that part (the triangular place on the clutch line, the plate attached to the back of the engine and the size, length and threads of that bolt keeping it all together.. (the one I'm missing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xychix Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 well, just 1/2 a year after the flexi hose was broken the master cilinder gave up. Might as well replace master and slave cilinder together... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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