Anderzander Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Can I just canvas some opinions on diesel heaters. I'd like to improve the heat up time on my Td5 90. My journey to work is only 25 minutes - but that means that the heating has never really started to work before I'm getting out at the other end. I actually think that once the standard heater is up to temperature and working, its more than adequate. However - I was going to put an air heater in either the battery box or ECU box - the plan was that as I have no centre bulkhead I'd have the vent in the strip of floor panel that runs along where the centre bulkhead would be - as thats a central point. I's thought to have the air intake into the footwell - to draw out the coldest air. I guess I'd also need to think about how much heat comes off one with it then being in such close proximity to the ECU. But anyhow - I'm now thinking that perhaps the water heater is the better option if it gets the standard heater system to the point where it can blow warm air before the engine runs - do they do that ? The air heater seems like it would come into its own if I were to sleep in the car - which I won't be and if I wanted the car warm for a long period without running the engine. The water heater seems that if it eradicates the warm up period - and of course is kinder to the engine - that it may then be the better option for me. It's potentially an easier install too ? So I just wondered if anyone might share the pro's and cons as they see them ? Or pass an opinion on my reasoning ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanco Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I have never had a diesel heater, but faced with a similar dilemma a few years ago I put a simple electric water heater onto the wife's Volvo and it worked brilliantly, timer and everything, just had to be plugged in at night. Of course that may not be possible for everyone, but heating the coolant was a great way to go, if I ever go back to Scotland it is the first thing I would do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 While I have preferences, I don't have direct experience of the fuel burning heater and the TD5. What I do have is experience of a diesel that was a little slow to warm up, and would not maintain heat if left idling. I discovered the thermostat had failed slightly open (never fully closing), which led to over cooling. Perhaps the thermostat is worth checking in your case. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The conclusion I came to when thinking about this was that a air heater can only heat the cab, whereas a water heater heats the engine and then you can heat the cab using the normal cabin heater (albeit more slowly than a direct air heater). And yes some of the water heater kits have the ability to switch on the cabin blower so your car is nice and warm for you to get into and go. 25 minutes sounds a long time for the car to only just be warming up, are you sure the cooling system etc. is all working correctly? Ok mine's a 200Tdi not a Td5 so perhaps can't be compared but during the colder part of the year it's warm within 5-10 mins and hot within 10-15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I'm pretty certain the cooling system is working to spec - certainly the last one was the same. Perhaps 25 mins is overstating it - but they have both been slow to heat up, and I've heard others say the same ? It also seems they get warm enough for the low fan speed sooner - but need to be quite hot before the full fan speed is useable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The downside of the water heater is that for your use you will want to add an extra battery so you don't risk flattening the normal battery, they take more power than the air heaters as you have to run a water pump and the normal blowers in the car while the engine is switched off (assuming you want the car demisted before you start as well as the engine heated) The air heater is only running it's own blower which is both firing the heater and moving the air around. I went with the air heater because A) I got it cheap and B) it was less likely to flatten my single battery. EDIT: Forgot to add that the air heater is working in recirculate mode but due to the air intake design of the Defender the water heater can only ever heat in non recirculate mode so I guess it must take longer to warm up the cabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 That's something I hadn't thought of ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I have seen a suggestion to use a blower from a LHD in place of the RHD unit..this can be arrange to draw in air from the passenger footwell. It has also been commented though that this can cause condensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 I'm not sure I follow that in the context of what we are saying ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 What CW said - water heaters have the benefit of warming the engine, but the drawback of warming the engine. It's kinder to your engine 'cos you start pre-warmed but it's a big lump of cold iron to warm up so will take longer, burn more fuel, and you have to pump water round so it uses more electricity and makes more noise. Notably a lot of diesel cars come with water heaters these days to give a quick warmup & demist, whereas trucks & campers tend to have air heaters as they are likely to want to warm the cab when sleeping in it without having to heat the engine all night. I've got a couple of each, and might end up with both in the camper. TSD is the heater champion as he has one of each plus PTC element, heated seats and heated washers, we drove his Ibex through -20 in t-shirts with the windows open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I take it 'normal' diesel cars that have a water heater fitted as standard just run the heater when you start the engine to get to operating temperature quickly, if this is the case then they wouldn't place extra demands on the battery and is one compromise you could look at. My other thought this morning was that if you find the normal heater is ok when the engine is warm perhaps you could look at ways to warm the engine quicker? Would a radiator muff sort your problem cheaply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Notably a lot of diesel cars come with water heaters these days to give a quick warmup & demist, whereas trucks & campers tend to have air heaters as they are likely to want to warm the cab when sleeping in it without having to heat the engine all night.And that's why I thought the water heater suited my application better - I won't be sleeping in it and its the quicker warm up I wanted.It's perhaps for me to just understand the battery scenario better and see if that swings the balance. I don't know if any of the modern cars with one fitted have twin batteries ? Though in the main I presume they are employed as auxiliary heaters - used in conjunction with the engine running ? ...... Though I see remote fobs for sale for Audi's etc. So if I wasn't going to be using the blower without the engine running - just as a water pre-heat would a healthy single battery cope with that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I have seen a suggestion to use a blower from a LHD in place of the RHD unit..this can be arrange to draw in air from the passenger footwell. It has also been commented though that this can cause condensation. I'm not sure I follow that in the context of what we are saying ? The normal heater draws in air from outside, which can be -5. If you draw the air from inside, it'll be warmer to start with, and as it gets warmer, it'll be warmer still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 It's perhaps for me to just understand the battery scenario better and see if that swings the balance. None of the land rovers with aux heaters have extra batteries, and the heaters will cut out if the battery voltage drops too low. I think the remote start fobs only ever run the heater for a timed period anyway, and although the heaters draw some amps it's not a huge amount for an average car battery to supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Best addition ever. It get to -40 where I live. The single battery works fine. Run the heater for 15 to 30 minutes before you leave. I have a low cost wireless remote to turn it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Can I ask which remote you used ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 This one: http://www.dinodirect.com/266-433MHz-Wireless-Remote-Control-Switch-System-AK-RK02B-12-AK-D02-currency-CAD.html?ddse=AK%20RK02B%2012%20AK%20D02&utm_source=AK%20RK02B%2012%20AK%20D02 Super cheap and has worked fine for many years. The Webasto ones are crazy expensive, unless you find a good deal on a used one. Another option is a paging remote car starter. Overkill, but can be had fairly cheap. You can also now get wireless relays that work through Mobiles that are not a bad price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Here is a GSM one: http://www.gsm-activate.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=52 With the two relay version, you could use one relay to control the Webasto and the other for the interior heater fan if you wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I've used an eberspacher water heater for a few years; never had a battery prob (like Fridge says, it should sense falling voltage and shut down). Perhaps I don't run it long enough, but it never gets the coolant hot enough for properly hot air (if you see what I mean), but you do get instant warm air, which quickly gets to hot once the engine's on. I love it. I got mine off a crashed audi for €0, they're easy to fit and there's loads of useful people and info on Rover 75 forums (search for 'parking heater'). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 It was someone that did aftermarket installs of the water heaters that recommended the extra battery to me, I guess he was just over cautious with his installs then judging from everyone else's comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 ref Giles' comment - I doubt a 3-4kW water heater can ever really warm an entire engine & coolant system to full operating temperature if the air temperature is cold as there's so much heat escaping. The air heaters definitely get properly toasty hot and a lot quicker as they have an easier job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 I've learned loads from this - thank you everyone ! Can I venture to ask what folk think of buying 2nd hand ? It seems to be what most people have done - but they don't seem to be a home serviceable item, so there is a level of risk I guess. Seeing things like this make you wonder : http://youtu.be/9YHPB8c1g0c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I bought both mine 2nd hand stripped them down and put them back together wilh no problem ! And they work lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I don't know what would be the combined current draw of an oil-burning water-heater and the vehicle's fan [you'd need to power both of them together if you want to get the cab warmed before you start the engine]. Oil-burning heaters seem such a faff. If I fitted one I'd want to fit a second battery and also a separate fuel-tank and run it on heating-kero (which doesn't attract road-fuel duties and you only pay 5% VAT rather than 20% on it so it's half-price or less compared to road-grade Diesel) My approach is to use a 3Kw electric fan-heater sat in the back of my 90, a 16-amp extension-lead back to the house, and a timeswitch set to come on about 20 minutes before my usual depart-for-work time. Everything's then nice and toasty [and the ice has all melted off the windows in frosty weather too]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 They use very little fuel, so I do not see adding separate tanks and such being worth any cost savings. The 5 kW Webasto is 0.6 l per hour on full fire. I'm guessing worse case, you burn 0.3 liter each start, maybe 30 liters a year, certainly less in the UK.. Heat, anywhere, any time. Seriously the best accessory ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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