davie Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 being a little lazy here so copy/pasting question same as i sent in a pm to make sure i give all same info in need for help here please. wondering if you can advise me on a winch issue please. got a new winch on my td5 90, one of bowyers goldfish tds 9500 winches. pulling a very stuck car tonight up a steep grass hill with no drive assist and car in mud and winch seemed to pulse a bit mid to late pull. got twin battery set up already and a supposedly intelligent 90 amp split charge relay to control it. is 90 amps enough or would pulsing be lack of power and so x eng 200 amp relay be better? winch batt and relay about 6 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwakers Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 you probably just flattened the batteries. no alternator is going to keep up with that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuck Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 ^^^^ Your alternator is capable of supplying what? 100 Amps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 not sure what my alternator kicks out, standard alternator in 2003 td5 defender, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovernut Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 At five years old your winch battery may be approaching retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I`d go along with the above. I have fitted a digital voltmeter to the winch battery of my 110 so that I can pause winching to allow the batteries to recover. I try not to drag it below 10.5v and have no problems with relay chatter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 So when you are mid to late pull you are likely to have more rope on the winch drum, which means you have a higher gearing and thus the motor is going to need more power than earlier on in the pull (given then drag/resistance conditions)My guess is that as a winch motor can pull up to 500Amps, the split charge is tripping out and then resetting and then tripping out again as the demand from it is over 90Amps For example under idea conditions a winch load of100Amps, will all come from the 100Amp Alternator (nothing from the batteries)200Amps, 100Amps from alternator, 50Amps from each battery300Amps, 100Amps from alternator, 100Amps from each batterythis could cause the Split charge to trip outso it would then becomes100Amps from Alternator and 200Amps from the single battery, thus lowering the voltage and thus reducing the speed of the winch.Solution remove the split charge as these are great for protecting the start battery when you are drawing power when the engine is not running, but cr*p for use with winching when the engine is running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Get shot of the split charge as they are a daft idea for winching. Wire the batteries in parallel. Always winch with the engine running, and raise the engine revs so the alternator charges. Job done. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 22, 2014 Author Share Posted November 22, 2014 great to have so many replies and pm chat with simonr so overall it seems my split charge isnt great, but does allow for rear work lights and few other odds and sods to be run without killing main batt. may go 2nd alternator as simon suggested, just need to find a kit for a 2003 td5 90 spoke to david bowyer as supplier of winch and he had poor opinion of split charge but had a cheap workaround, i am almost done fitting anderson plugs to front and rear batt so suggests a cable to join two together when winching to get best performance. just need rain to stop for a while to get it all fitted up. very happy though that dont have to buy expensive parts as i need a new exhaust - new topic to follow! thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Bit of talk around twin alternator set ups here .... http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=44676 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Its worth remembering that often a relay advertised as ,500A, will pass that current for a reasonable time without coming to harm but switching that current is a very different matter. If you hear your relay switching as described stop - let the alternator catch up with the load demand for a while. Your relay will be very grateful and reward you with a longer service life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Your alternator is capable of supplying 100 amps at flat out rpm. On tick over, which you usually do while winching, you'd be happy to get 20 amps. Also, getting a bigger alternator is not a particularly good solution, because this will produce even less amps at tickover. but will charge quicker afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Your alternator is capable of supplying 100 amps at flat out rpm. On tick over, which you usually do while winching, you'd be happy to get 20 amps. Also, getting a bigger alternator is not a particularly good solution, because this will produce even less amps at tickover. but will charge quicker afterwards. While it is true that alternator max output is at high alternator rpm, you should get more than 20amp at idle. If you look at a typical alternator power curve They the output quickly rises with alternator rpm and then flattens out at higher alternator rpm. If you then take in to account a crank pulley to alternator ratio (my guess of 4:1) an engine idle of 800rpm will produce a alternator rpm of 3200 rpm which is quite high up in it's output range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 So yes a link cable than manually needs connecting or a permanent one with a isolator switch is ideal when you want both winching and power protection when not running.I also run a second alternator on my V8 and it will help with winching, but not with battery recharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudmagnet Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Interesting post as I was about to fit a split charge and I have a winch Having 2nd thoughts now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 In my 110 I have the standard LR split charge relay fed from a 100amp alternator to both batteries, also have a internal isolator switch to connect the start & winch batts together for winching heavy loads, this can also be used as an internal jump start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 And that /\ is a very good semi automatic system, A bit of a generalisation but battery life is shortened if you parallel them and particularly if they are dissimilar types, so leaving them connected is a bad thing, Westerns relay takes care of separating them when needed (*1) Connecting in parallel when charging and discharging with a very low resistance switch or bond is a good thing. The isolater switch does that. (*1) Its semi automatic as you need to remember to remove the isolater when you don't need the extra discharge current capabilities. Solid state switches are more reliable than electro mechanical contactors and are probably the future for high current split charging systems especially as electric vehicle technology becomes more common. Even today I use a bank of n channel Fets to control my tower winch, switches 1000A with a lower on resistance than a conventional contactor and only needs a few mA of gate current to drive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 That's good to know, Cheers both batteries are the same make/model/amp & cca capacity, recently replaced earlier this year. the isolator only gets switched on for heavy [double line] winching. otherwise the split charge looks after itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 And after all is said and done, Toyota stick two batteries in parallel on the 3.0D auto Hiluxs and I've never had a failure- and we run amps of discharge overnight in -20c - so its not the end of the world if you forget from time to time :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 While it is true that alternator max output is at high alternator rpm, you should get more than 20amp at idle. If you look at a typical alternator power curve They the output quickly rises with alternator rpm and then flattens out at higher alternator rpm. If you then take in to account a crank pulley to alternator ratio (my guess of 4:1) an engine idle of 800rpm will produce a alternator rpm of 3200 rpm which is quite high up in it's output range That's a very useful bit of data - its probably what I expected but had never measured and the curve is much steeper than I thought. So what would probably work well is a little forked actuator acting on the governor cable to shift the tick over up a couple of hundred rpm when winching - I bet that would make big difference and a bit more coolant flow as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I've even had a new alternator delivered with a piece of paper with it's actual measured power curve (I did think I had kept it but could not find it) and it's measured output was higher than it's rated output at high alternator rpm.Also another trick you can do at least on Lucas EFi systems is to put 12v power via a switch to the correct pin on the ECU to tell it that the Aircon is running and the ECU increases the idle rpm by about 200rpm (like an alternator the aircon pump puts a load on the engine and the increased idle is to help the engine handle that load) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 The one everyone seems to hate is the marine split charge diode pack. Can't see why, as mine has worked as soundly as they do on boats. The big wire from the alternator goes to the pack, and two big wires go to each battery. Current can't back-flow, so one battery cannot charge the other. I have Anderson plugs permanently fitted if I need to link them. Yes the pack drops 0.7 volts. No, it doesn't make it low on charge. I could fit a different regulator to compensate, but I could also fit a boat regulator to change the charge curve completely? I haven't needed to yet. It just sits there and does the biz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Also another trick you can do at least on Lucas EFi systems is to put 12v power via a switch to the correct pin on the ECU to tell it that the Aircon is running and the ECU increases the idle rpm by about 200rpm (like an alternator the aircon pump puts a load on the engine and the increased idle is to help the engine handle that load) It does, but only does it for a couple of seconds. It's only intended to bridge the gap at tickover, when the aircon kicks in, to prevent stalling before the IAC can respond to the drop in RPM. It essentially just moves the IAC out a couple of steps at the moment the aircon compressor is engaged then control is handed back to the closed loop IAC control. On the plus side though you can use the input and connect it to the winch so it automatically increases the engine rpm when you start winching, allowing the engine to cope with the extra load without stalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I guess I need to get a copy of rave and see if I can figure out if I could do that on my Td5... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I guess I need to get a copy of rave and see if I can figure out if I could do that on my Td5... It should be fairly easy to drop a couple of fixed resistors into the pedal sensor at the appropriate time but maybe it would make errors if you changed the overall resistance too much. This reminds me of my Bedford MIDI van which had a cable worked dashboard control to set the idle when cold. I had a piece of wood with a slot in it to act as cruise control...youth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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