garrycol Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 What is needed to put a 3.9 14CUX injection system on to a 4.6. Obviously the hardware will just bolt on but what is needed as far as changes to injectors, fuel flow. air flow to allow the system to handle 4.6 litres vs the original 4.6 litres. Likewise what changes are needed to the ECU to handle the capacity increase and possible changes to the injectors and induction. Is the standard MAF good enough or does it need changing as well. Thanks Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangy35 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Not done this myself, but seen a few done and did not seem to have any concerns running with all the 3.9 gear on the 4.6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeyRover Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 14CUX gear can now be reprogrammed by a competent DIY type. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=9&t=1325176&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Instructions+to+change+fuel+maps+on+14CUX+Griffith%2C+Chimaera&mid=0 http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux The griffith maps were for 5.0 anyway I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrycol Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Thanks for the comments - if I was to get an ECU reprogrammed as indicated in the links I would have to get someone to do it for me. So hardware as is. is Ok and a little work on the ECU will make it better. Cheers Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 May I suggest Megasquirt as a preferable alternative? 14CUX, being mass-airflow, should adjust to the 4.6 OK but by no means perfectly. Injectors etc. were the same spec across the range so no worries there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrycol Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yes, but unless other options are canvassed you don't know what else might work - I have already investigated Megasquirt but looking for other alternatives before deciding what I will do. Megasquirt is expensive where I already have the basic bits to do the option looking at in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 BTW reading RangeyRover's post I would not be tempted with a TVR map on a standard engine, TVR engines have a reputation as being cobbled together from whichever parts they could find, the map could be for any bizarre combination of block/heads/cam and it'll be designed to blast a small aerodynamic lump of GRP around country lanes, not haul 2 tonnes of Range Rover over a ditch at tickover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeyRover Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Hi Fridge, I agree MS is usually better but for the OP's question, changes can be done to accomodate the 4.6. the links for the maps combine LR and TVR BINS, and the people who use them seem to have no issues. If price is your measure for budget EFI that can be tuned, still some life in the 14CUX http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/bins Comparisons made between LR and TVR maps, not much difference. I'd personally prefer the MS so that the ignition is taken care of too, and made waterproof, but cost might push me back the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
task Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm running a 4.6 in a RRC on 14CUX currently, it has a re-chipped ECU and a 20AM AFM, however, if I were doing it again I would probably be tempted to go the megasquirt route and get the ignition taken care of too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I realise 14CUX can run the 4.6, and is more than capable of doing so, but as you say it doesn't handle ignition (I could never go back to clockwork now) and doesn't have such easy tunability. Having to pay someone to adjust ECU settings doesn't appeal to me. 1st post wasn't clear that he was canvassing the options / was aware of the MS option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrycol Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 1st post wasn't clear that he was canvassing the options / was aware of the MS option. The post was specific to just the 4CUX as I have learnt previously, and as has happened in this thread, that any discussion on V8 injection is drowned out by MS discussion and anything else gets missed. Hence this thread was intended to discuss issues with the 4CUX on a 4.6 - it wasn't intended to be a discussion of options for injection/ignition. However I appreciate the comments' Thanks Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Several years ago a mechanic at a local garage fitted a 4.6 into a Classic,cant remember if he used a 3.9 or 4.2LSE CUX ecu,but it went very well and he was very pleased with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Ignoring THOR setups as I haven't played with those: Induction wise, all plenums (other than specials) have the same mouth size. The inlet manifolds are the same casting with minor differences in holes drilled / mounting flats machined from 3.5 flapper up. The 4.0 / 4.6 TPS is a much nicer & more robust, I don't know if it's electrically identical but it's certainly the right sort of thing. Later temp senders are 4-wire, no idea if they can be used with 14CUX. Idle valves are different but I think still a 4-wire stepper type, so close, might work but you'll need to double triple check the wiring so it turns the right way. The 14CUX might live with it or might go a bit nuts if the idle adjustment response is too different to the older style. Lambda sensors for 14CUX are Titania type, the relatively odder sort. You'd need to remove the (IMHO nicer & neater) 4.0/4.6 front cover and replace with one that has a dizzy drive, the has knock on ramifications for cam noses, crank noses, dizzy drive gear, pulleys, and hence ancillaries. Probably other detail differences too, I ran 3.5 / 3.9 bits on my 4.6 block but ditched it all in favour of a standard 4.6 setup for neatness & ease of getting spares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I don't think the Thor manifold gives much advantage,it is certainly much more difficult to work on - esp plumbing in LPG injectors and their wiring.The only cheaper thing about them is that they use 0-1v Zirconia sensors.Unlike Gems the Thor ecu's don't seem to be easy to tweak,Mark Adams for instance modded a Gems ecu to run a small block Chev conversion in a P38 for a mate of mine,again worked very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Peing picky, thor manifolds do not dictate choice of lambda sensors, that's down to the choice of ECU. I believe Thor manifolds are worth ~20lb/ft at low RPM but I can't for the life of me remember where I heard it. Certainly it was the first serious bit of development done to the RV8 for about 20 years so you'd hope it wasn't making things worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Fridge, you can read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_V8_engine#4.6 Doesn't specifically mention Thor, but a 3BHP drop for 20lbft is a very good compromise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTOINE Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 for info, when I have run my 4.6l with 14CUX, I have put the voltage on the airflowmeter at 2.1 V, with O2 sensor in the exhaust, my auto was good like this, and 12 ° for the dizzy but now, MS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Fridge, you are being picky - from my post it should be obvious that I was talking about Thor setups as they were supplied by LR in 99 on P38's and DII V8's - Not what you can swop around and get to work as a DIY deal. And despite what factory figures were released I have never felt any seat of the pants gain from all the road testing I have done when doing diagnostic work or tuning LPG systems. They certainly feel and sound more "revvy" than Gems engines ,but don't seem to deliver much more go in use.(And I've driven literally hundreds of them) I think it was more a case of BMW shoving a tenner in the pot to polish a tired turd. If anyone is interested I have quite alot of CUX / Gems and Thor bits hanging around that I'd like to offload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 road testing I have done when doing diagnostic work or tuning LPG systems. A little OT, but how did you get on with getting an LPG system to play well with the Bosch ECU? It's been a neverending battle for me, seems the Bosch and LPG ECUs are constantly battling it out, and it's either running very lean or using a whole lot of fuel. It's an AEB system with an OBD connection to the Bosch ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 .The most common ones I have done have been Romano RisN,they were fitted by Dunsford Landrovers,a local independent now closed down. They did a tidy job of fitting them,but never bothered much with setting them up... I used to use two laptops at the same time,one running the LPG software and the other on Testbook monitoring fuel trims.Near me is a long stretch of Roman road which is very quiet,ideal for tuning,all I did was run at a particular speed/throttle opening,note the trim on petrol and then trim the gas to match.As long as its all in good shape its not too bad to get them very close - they will never be spot on as the gas simply isn't accurate enough to keep up.They will stay in tune though,there are only two left now that I see as regular customers,I rarely need to touch the LPG side. There is only one other I do is on OMVL Dream,again a good system once fitted with Matrix injectors,the originals were rubbish.Cant remember doing much with AEB kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Yeah, I tried the whole looking at fuel trims thing. Change the map 30%, nothing changes in the fuel trims, things like that. It's working fairly well now, but still gobbling up the fuel. Maybe the engine just really needs a rebuild though, that won't be helping, and it does get pushed hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I think you need to be much more specific,changing individual areas of the LPG map if its going to have any chance of following what the petrol ecu wants to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrycol Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I thought this was a thread about putting a 4cux system on a 4.6 not MS, Thor or LPG. If you want to discuss these issues maybe you need to start another thread, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iomlt Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I have a hot wire ecu with tornado chip programed for the 4.6 if anyone needs one, I no longer need it as I've gone megasquirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
task Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 this might be of use... http://www.stevesprint.com/remap-14cux/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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