TD5 Starting Problem

[reb78]

Got a problem with the disco and cold starting. It goes like this..... when going to start it, it cranks fine, catches quite quickly for a second then stalls. It does this two to three times more and then starts runs rough for 5 secs and grey smoke (i have a video but its too big to load) that clears pretty quickly. If you crank it for longer than seems right, it will start without the three tries, but its not normal like that. Up until christmas, it started first turn of the key and caught within 1-2 seconds.

The rest of the day it starts fine until the next cold start.

FPR was replaced about 6 months ago, it doesn't use water, oil level appears stable. No faults on nanocom other than (3,7) AIR FLOW CIRCUIT, (LOGGED HIGH) which i think is linked to an unrelated running problem. Tested the glowplugs on nanocom and that hasn't returned a fault (although you press the button, it says test complete so not sure what it does when there is a fault?)

Any ideas? Crank sensor problem? An electrical issue with the starter motor (it cranks fine, but i have heard of them affecting the signal from the crank sensor i think?), could it still be a glowplug fault? I tried to test the glowplug resistance today, but gave up as simply getting to them was pretty hard and i dont think my multimeter is working properly. In addition to this, AllyV8 always rules out glowplugs on the threads on here with cold starting issues.

Any ideas?

[Maverik]

Not an oil in injector loom issue?

[reb78]

Not an oil in injector loom issue?

I don't think it is Mav. It's all clean, nothing at the red plug and the join in the head is clean too.

I should add, going through a purge sequence before the first start doesn't seem to make a difference either.

[Maverik]

How's the housing for your fuel filter look? They have a habit of corroding and crumbling, I'm thinking air in fuel lines... Also was there not an issue with some d2's with a hole being rubbed through some of the fuel lines...

[Ally V8]

Couple of things,as you know I've said many times before a TD5 should start easily in cold weather without waiting for glows to heat up.My own TD5 sits for days on end in an open front shed in a cold sump of a valley - it starts instantly on 5 cylinders,no messing.But its in good shape.

Your problem sounds very much like an arching starter motor spiking the crank sensor wiring and confusing the engine ecu.The easy starting when warm is because the starter draws less current when the engine turns over more easily - less sparks.

You can prove this by bump starting it if its manual or if its an auto you need to reroute the heavy red cable to the starter away from the crank sensor wiring.

Of course all this is irrelevant if the battery voltage is dropping away because its tired - TD5's need a healthy cranking speed,with enough grunt left to keep the engine ecu awake.

[reb78]

Couple of things,as you know I've said many times before a TD5 should start easily in cold weather without waiting for glows to heat up.My own TD5 sits for days on end in an open front shed in a cold sump of a valley - it starts instantly on 5 cylinders,no messing.But its in good shape.

Your problem sounds very much like an arching starter motor spiking the crank sensor wiring and confusing the engine ecu.The easy starting when warm is because the starter draws less current when the engine turns over more easily - less sparks.

You can prove this by bump starting it if its manual or if its an auto you need to reroute the heavy red cable to the starter away from the crank sensor wiring.

Of course all this is irrelevant if the battery voltage is dropping away because its tired - TD5's need a healthy cranking speed,with enough grunt left to keep the engine ecu awake.

Thanks. Battery is good as far as I can tell. It charges well and hold a it's voltage.

Is the starter problem normally something one of these kits will solve

http://www.repairkitsuk.com/4.html

I've used them on a freelander starter before and they worked a treat for a diff starter motor on there.

[reb78]

How's the housing for your fuel filter look? They have a habit of corroding and crumbling, I'm thinking air in fuel lines... Also was there not an issue with some d2's with a hole being rubbed through some of the fuel lines...

I think the housing is good. The pipe problem is common, but I replaced them last year, so I know they are good at the moment!

[sierrafery]

It seems more like injector washers issue unless it's the air bleed valve in the rear wheel side port of the filter head, it can't be ruled out only by replaceing it, google out WJN500110, next time at first start run a purging sequence on it(5 times throttle fully down then wait for the MIL to stop flashing, about 3 minutes) before you crank it and if it starts ok then first replace the valve and if no joy IMO go for the injector washers/seals

IMO once started the starter has nothing to do with the fact that it stalls immediately so dont bother with it, it would be suspect only for hard even no start symptom

[Anderzander]

This is helpful for me too. Very occasionally mine stalls straight after starting - trying again straight away will always fire it up though.

I'd thought it was happening when it was cold as leaving it priming results in it not happening - but I see that is likely the fuel rather than the glow plugs.

I found the bulletin for the bleed filter : http://gershon.ucoz.com/landrover/TD5/TOPIx-LD310-001-Defender_Td5_Poor_Starting_Noisy_F.pdf

[Ally V8]

Reb 78 has already stated that the purge cycle does not help,that its ONLY the cold start makes me think its an electrical issue. Its worth trying a bump start if possible,it costs nothing and needs no spannering.

You can usually tell if there is air in the system by listening to the fuel pump when you key on,the pump should very quickly wind up to speed and hold it,not dip up and down.

The solenoid repair kits you posted the link to will be fine if needed,but try to work out if its fuel or electrical first.

[sierrafery]

my apologies, i missed that post when he said that purging had no effect, sorry

[reb78]

Well, this morning, this has progressed from only being the first start of the day to being most starts after it has been left and hour or so. If you get it started and stop it, it will start fine within five minutes or so of being stopped, the longer its left, the harder it seems to be to start.

Checking the MAF loom this morning because of another problem, i was having a good poke around and noticed a few things and i'm not sure if they are related to the starting problem.

1. The fuel pump seems louder than i would expect. Video here (hopefully can hear):

http://vid645.photobucket.com/albums/uu179/reb1978/IMG_0162_zpsqvr6y3f9.mp4

2. The pipes from the FPR looked a little wet, but i lay under it looking as it went through a purge sequence and no diesel appeared to be leaking. FPR was replaced about 6 months ago so i dont know if this is just left over residue from the fact it was leaking before it was changed?

3. Whilst purging (proper accelerator to the floor 5 times purge), the pump sounded loud as above and you could hear the fuel gushing - difficult to tell if there was air in there.

4. After purging, it took forever to start. It needed cranking for perhaps a minute, tried to catch several times and eventually started. Crank speed seems ok. Depressing the accelerator seemed to help

5. Looking at the starter motor, it appeared to be attached with two bolts accessible from the bottom and what should have been a nut (less accessible at the top) which was actually missing.

Does this shed any more light? Starter seems to come up in a lot of searches for its interference with the signal from the crank position sensor even if it is cranking fine.

[cress]

Hi Rich,

for what its worth, I had my pump sound just like that and the body was getting extremely hot. The cause in my case was returning from 3 weeks in france on the bike filling with petrol, got back jumped in the disco and put about 30 quid of petrol in . Had to be recovered. ended up draining the tank and replenishing with diesel, luckily fine ever since.

So using this as a logical approach,

1/ petrol in fuel

2/ Water in fuel

3/ Pump worn not holding any pressure

Purely My opinion

Cheers

Iv

[reb78]

Ok. It's been say about three hours since I last started it and it started first turn of the key this time! Pump still noisy though!

It's definitely not petrol in the tank. Worn pump? Maybe.

[reb78]

Ok. Because it was fairly cheap, I ordered wjn500110, the air bleed valve. I also intend to pull, inspect and clean the pump.

The bleed valve arrived today so I popped under and set about cleaning the filter housing to change it and found it in this state

All the ports are like this. I presume it's time for a new filter housing?

[Ally V8]

Very common,you only need replace it if it leaks.I take pity on owners when I see them like this,give them a good clean and Dinitrol them...

[reb78]

I was a bit worried it would disintegrate as I undid the valve! It looks very thin where the copper washer seals so I wasn't sure it would seal back up.

[reb78]

Right. This problem has gotten a lot worse now.

Since my last post, i have replaced the filter housing with a brand new one. Fitted the LR genuine air bleed valve that i had ordered to the filter housing. After bleeding, the pump makes the noise it made in the video above (post 12) for about three seconds on when it first starts pumping and then hums quietly - it does this every time you power the pump up.

I also pulled the pump as AllyV8 recommended - it was pretty clean TBH

The red port on the old filter housing looked a little black inside as well

Is the slightly black tinge on everything normal? Its very mild and wipes off easily.

So, all fine pump seemed to work and the system primed and started first turn of the key. That was yesterday. I left it overnight

I took it out today and initially it seemed fine, started first turn of the key, pump was loud for about 3 secs and then quiet as i let it prime before starting. On the road it initially seemed ok, but then seemed to be holding back at higher revs. This progressed to it stalling - it was like a failed lift pump on the 110 to be honest. Pulled to the side of the road, and wouldnt start, just cranked, the off road raised suspension light and HDC light flashed on several times as it cranked. I let it do a purge sequence and finally got it started. Stalled one more time before i got it home - same sequence of events to get it started.

Any ideas at all?? The other half has her trailer test and training later this week and is too short to easily reach the pedals in the 110 so could do the the D2 working for her! I'm stumped. Only fault code on nanocom was 22,1 Road speed missing (logged).

Fuel pump? Starter motor contacts (wouldn't explain the stalling)? Injector seals??

[cress]

Hi Richard,

Seems to me you are in the right area, after all you have done has made a difference to the running. The only other component that has not been disscused is the Fuel pressure regulator. I must admit I am not familiar with the injector seals but I have had to swap out the pressure valve due to leaks. It definately seems like a fuel starvation problem to me. Just come to mind. have you done any error checks just to rule out any elec faults?

Cheers

Iv

[reb78]

Thanks Cress. For was replaced about 6 months ago.

[Shackleton]

It got to be the injector seals. The thin black film on the fuel pump and filter housing internals is soot blowing past them and into the returning fuel. The momentary pump gurgle when ignition is switched on is air/combustion gas in the fuel for the same reason. You could second the guess the FPR too by cleaning around it and keeping a eye on things with an inspection mirror, but most likely the seals.

[reb78]

Thanks. This seems to be the next sensible thing to change.

Here's a vid of the crappy starting after being sat for about an hour:

http://vid645.photobucket.com/albums/uu179/reb1978/C1903E20-AC05-4419-95BD-A43AA0A5CFFD_zpsvulaj30h.mp4

(annoying thing is that i have a set of seals - ordered genuine from LRDirect. However, the copper seals were all five in a clear sandwich bag not a LR sticker in sight - what are the chances of these actually being genuine? I thought they would come in five separate LR labelled bags. I have contacted LRDirect by email, but no reply so will ring them today.)

[Shackleton]

I got something similar from Turners and went on faith that they don't muck about, even though I didn't think much of how the copper ones were finished. IT doesn't help that it's not the kind of job you get a reassuring click or feeling from when you replace an injector either. They've been on the car for maybe 3k miles now and all is well. (they might be the only thing well on the car)

In my experience that pronounced noise from the pump is most certainly down to the seals.

Haha yours is doing the buzzing from the A/C sensor that I was talking about a few weeks back, I'm not alone.

[reb78]

I got something similar from Turners and went on faith that they don't muck about, even though I didn't think much of how the copper ones were finished. IT doesn't help that it's not the kind of job you get a reassuring click or feeling from when you replace an injector either. They've been on the car for maybe 3k miles now and all is well. (they might be the only thing well on the car)

In my experience that pronounced noise from the pump is most certainly down to the seals.

Haha yours is doing the buzzing from the A/C sensor that I was talking about a few weeks back, I'm not alone.

Had a reply from LRDirect about the seals:

Dear Richard,

Thank you for your email, and our apologies for our delay in responding.

I have spoken with our ordering department and they have confirmed that you have received genuine Land Rover parts. As you had ordered 5 units and the product comes in larger unit packs you will have been provided with a split of the pack in unbranded packaging.

I hope this answers your query satisfactorily.

Kind regards,

Joe Lauzier

They've never given me cause to doubt them and always sent what was ordered so i will fit these. I was going to dismantle tonight, but its raining now and i;ve lost the will with it for the next few days i think! Oh to have a garage that i can light and heat and work in in the dry!!! (current one would be too small to take the car even if i hadnt kitted it out as a workshop)

[Shackleton]

I hear that, I did 2 engine conversions outside - in winter. I resorted at one stage to pushing the front of the RR into the garage as far as the windscreen because there wasn't clearance for the whole thing. That stopped when I forgot to put the bonnet down when reversing and smashed my early bonnet mounted mirrors off the lintel

Then I got one of these. The video doesn't do it justice, the outer is almost like a soft canvas and is tough as nails, and the inner is actually too warm for some of the more physical jobs. It's pricy but so worth it.

btw iirc a 6mm allen key is perfect to shimmy under the injector body to lever it out.