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Vapour build: (T)di engine for series-boost on demand


o_teunico
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Hi!

The 2.25 diesel in my Series is quite healthy and feels more powerfull than the one of our previous 88.

But some more HP will be handy, and better MPG will also be something desirable.

A Land Rover Tdi without turbo, that is, a Di seems the simplest option. I have new exhaust and I´m going to rebuild the radiator, and both could be reused with the Di.

75 to 80 HP is what a Di delivers. Perfect for the Series chassis and brakes.

In very steep climbs or when overtaking something more than the 80 HP could make the difference.

And here is the vapour build...a tank containing compressed air will "supercharge" the engine for a few seconds and recover all the Tdi power. Sound like a good idea?

I heard some time ago about a Ford pickup that used a similar system, boosting the engine on demand with freezed air, previously cooled with the A/C.

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Interesting concept, but a fair bit of thought would have to go into the control of said system, how about a supercharger type set up... Or even one of those braking engery recapture systems (KERS)... Probably slightly out an every day budget, but interesting concept.

You might be better off actually with just compressed oxygen injection, I used to sit next to a guy that raced nitro fitted bikes, we disscused in detail getting a few more horses out of my 200tdi, he suggested that for me, a little more tame than nitrous but would still give a fair boost, all it needed was a doseing system and a nozzle installed onto the inlet manifold. As long as you engaged the injection with the pedal flat on the floor you couldnt go wrong... :)

That's got me thinking now...

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A Land Rover Tdi without turbo, that is, a Di seems the simplest option. I have new exhaust and I´m going to rebuild the radiator, and both could be reused with the Di.

I'm really not convinced it is that much simpler tbh. And certainly not when compared to doing engine swaps in general.

75 to 80 HP is what a Di delivers. Perfect for the Series chassis and brakes.

Firstly Series run fine with V8's and Tdi's in, there is nothing wrong with the chassis. Brakes are fine too, so long as working correctly and accepting drum brake limitations (water/sand, etc).

However I think 75-80hp is being way too optimistic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you'll see an mpg improvement and maybe less noise and different power curve, so it'll feel different to drive vs the 2.25

But Tdi Defenders only really do 24-28mpg average. So your mpg hike won't be huge.

But I honestly don't believe Di's make anywhere near 80hp, if they did, Land Rover did one tiddle poor job developing an intercooled turbo unit.

We know the 2.25 is rated at 65hp

The 2.5NAd is rated at 67hp

And the turbo 2.5 TD at 89hp

The Di is just a NAD with I think lower compression and direct fuel injection. Di on it's own will not be adding 13hp IMO.

My hunch is more like 70-72hp at most and quite possibly less for a Di.

And don't forget, without the turbo you won't get the fat torque curve either and 0.25 litres will only add a small amount of torque.

In very steep climbs or when overtaking something more than the 80 HP could make the difference.

And here is the vapour build...a tank containing compressed air will "supercharge" the engine for a few seconds and recover all the Tdi power. Sound like a good idea?

I don't think it will supercharge it.

You'd need a sealed intake system to maintain the pressure and would need to adjust the fuelling to make use of it.

Also as you release air from the tank it will expand, loosing it's pressure. This might cause a chilling affect and increase the charge density, but I think any gains will be tiny.

Plus the plumbing in of this will likely end up being more complex than just using the turbo. It's not as if a 5mm vacuum pipe tapped into the manifold is going to work.

I heard some time ago about a Ford pickup that used a similar system, boosting the engine on demand with freezed air, previously cooled with the A/C.

Details?
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Why not just keep the turbo, but run a boost controller. I've seen it regularly used on turbo engines to reduce boost in low gears to save the transmission, or operate on a micro switch with the throttle, so that high boosts are achieved when you really nail it.

Its a fairly in-expensive system, and hell of a lot safer than bottles of oxygen!

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I have a mechanism for this called "my right foot" controlled by something known as "mechanical sympathy", it's easily over-ridden if necessary but hasn't failed me yet.

Does mechanical sympathy normally include leaving it in the garage and not driving it.....ok I'm off now.

Mike

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it's easily over-ridden if necessary but hasn't failed me yet.

Far too easily overridden when you're driving a borrowed truck, Mr Fridge

uj.jpg

Lucky the cambelt sacrificed itself before you broke anything else :hysterical:

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I have a mechanism for this called "my right foot" controlled by something known as "mechanical sympathy", it's easily over-ridden if necessary but hasn't failed me yet.

You say that, but many modern cars do this kind of thing. My '99 Camaro has torque limiting by the ECU in the 1st two gears. And lots of modern turbo cars don't make full boost along with other ECU actions which also reduce output in lower gears.

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Sounds like a job for 'electric turbo'. There is a belt driven one on a supercharged mini that is a turbine wheel and a gear-up gearbox. I converted one to have an air con clutch. Don't think the bloke has run it yet? And I thought it was better driven off a winch motor anyway.

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You say that, but many modern cars do this kind of thing. My '99 Camaro has torque limiting by the ECU in the 1st two gears. And lots of modern turbo cars don't make full boost along with other ECU actions which also reduce output in lower gears.

I work in an industry where increasingly complex automation has been used to make our task easier, initially, and then more and more to prevent our input from causing incidents or accidents, gradually designing out. The actual effect has been rather counter productive - rather than increasing safety and competence, it has overcomplicated operations and massively eroded skill levels so there is now a massive problem with automation dependency, and a hell of a lot of folk can't cope when the automatics foul up. I don't like seeing the same applied to cars, even though we all see how badly drivers behave in bad weather because they have become reliant on their car's ABS, ETC and so on in substitution for their judgement.

Back on topic, there is no point in removing the turbo to then find a more complex and restrictive way of increasing performance. Adding propane, water or Nox injection to a NAD, OK, but this plan is just futile.

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Exactly, they had a stake in, and were around when the K-Series was developed, and I would find it very hard to believe there was no information/development sharing considering how similar the K-series is to many Japanese engines.

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Exactly, they had a stake in, and were around when the K-Series was developed, and I would find it very hard to believe there was no information/development sharing considering how similar the K-series is to many Japanese engines.

Have a read:

http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/rover/40045mg-zs/engines-k-series/

Not Honda.

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