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Injection Pump Play


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So yesterday I was going to change my timing case front cover due to a failed fan bearing. While I had the front cover off I noticed a load of fluff. First time ever doing it but thought I would change the timing belt. Cant be to hard right? Well it was a little tricky but I got there (Or so I thought) started it up no noises or anything, all seemed fine. Drove it up to temp for maybe 15 minutes along 60mph roads. Stopped had a listen and all sounded good. Drove for another 10/15 minutes and stopped and there as a noise. A metal on metal noise.

Got it home and off came the cover again. Lots of metal dust especially around the Injection pump pulley. Couldn't see anything obvious no marks or anything. Took the belt of and there is play in the pulley not as in clockwise anti-clockwise play but play forward and back (towards the back of the car and then to the front of the car. Not much but enough and it sounds like its hitting the back of the timing case.

Video here - This might help explain all of my rambling up there ^^^

So what does this mean for me? Is it something nice and simple and easy? (I hope so!) or is it a new injection pump (Please No :( I don't have the money) Im working all day tomorrow so won't be able to try anything until then but guessing it will be injection pump of first which I will do when I get home.

The sooner I can get it fixed the better as this is my daily commuter :(

(I have also included a photo of the new Timing belt and the only one)

Thanks

Stephen

post-98616-0-14700600-1427239353_thumb.jpg

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As far as I can see its all in line across all the pullys and tensioners. It seems the injection pulley is moving back and forward and when it goes back its hitting the back of the timing case causing the noise and the metal dust. Thats my guess anyway. Don't know if thats possible or how to fix it!

S

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Is it just the shaft that's moving to and fro or is the whole pump moving?

Hopefully it will be the two retaining nuts at the rear of the timing case that are loose. If they are use a dab of Loctite on the studs before taking them up to the correct torque setting of 25Nm.

If its the shaft then I'm afraid that you need to get your FIP overhauled as the thrust bearings inside the pump have gone, I wouldn't advise that you attempt to renew them yourself as the pump will need to be totally rebuilt but I'm sure that there are threads on this site to explain how to overhaul the pump yourself if the cost of this is prohibitive if done by a Bosch agent.

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I'm going to say it's the shaft based on the fact i csn move it easily with one hand and it feels almost sprung loaded, if you push it away from yourself and let go it pops back towards you.

I'm guessing if I remove the FIP and there is play on the shaft out of the vehicle then it's an overhaul.

If I was to buy a second hand one just now is there anything specific I need to get. Are they specific to a version of the 300tdi or will any other injection pump from a 300tdi work?

Thanks

Stephen

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Some updates. Been out and using the power of the sun noticed a snapped bolt under my car. And in the process of removing me injection pump noticed it was missing a locking bolt. Also with the FIP pusshed back towards the rear of the case it doesn't touch the case and there are no marks on the pulley or case where it would have been hitting.

I'm wondering if this bolt has broken half way along my journey then bounced around the timing case making all horrible kinds of noises but never in time just random. It would explain the metal dust.

And maybe the play in the injection pump is "normal" it's not much at all maybe 3 or 4mm I would say.

I think I will put it all back together and start it up and see what happens.

Can I run the engine with the timing case off? I know I need the harmonic balancer (i think that's what I mean. The big metal pulley wheel at the very bottom?) just so I can see what's going on?

Thanks

Stephen

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Looks like it's a good job you changed the belt when you did, that's well worn!

There shouldn't be movement in the pump spindle, but are you sure it actually is the pump spindle that's moving and not the pulley or the hub?

With a 300 I think you can run it with the cover off, unlike the 200 which has the water pump on the front of it. It's not recommended though.

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I tried my best to measure the movement today with a tape measure so it's not accurate but seemed to only be about 1mm of movement. It's not the pulley that's moving but it could be the hub. How's best to check the hub? I'm away from it just now but if I have a list of things to try and check when I get home that's always good!

Also the only reason for running it without the cover was just to see if the noise had gone and if it was just caused by the bit of nut that I found. Otherwise it probably adds half and hour on to put the cover back on see how it sounds and then take it apart again!

S

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Right, thinking while out, can't be the hub loose on the shaft, they're not keyed to it they're driven by a taper, so if it's loose, it won't run. That indicates it is the pump spindle gone awol, assuming that the three nuts that hold the pump to the timing case are tight and it's not the whole pump moving?

I can't remember the 300 belt layout to know if there's any tensioners or idlers on the timing cover. If not you should be ok. If it were a 200 I'd say you could run it quite happily but the 300 is very fussy about it's coolant. 30 seconds from cols to prove noise or no noise should be safe....he says....

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With the pully off there is still about 1mm of movement in the shaft or possibly the shaft. The only obvious nut to try and tighten would be the nut in the centre of the hub.

There doesnt seem to be any movement in the pump body it seems fixed solid

S

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Don't play with the nut that holds the hub onto the FIP shaft, if it's loose then it's new FIP time anyway as the timing will be lost (unless you want to re-set it using a DTI in the back of the pump). You'll need to find if that sheared bolt came from anywhere important though.

I have a spare 200Tdi pump (with a leak unfortunately) in the garage, when I get home tonight I'll have a look and see if there is any in/out play in the drive shaft for you. Same basic Bosch VE pump unit so should be comparable, at least then you can establish whether what you have is normal.

The 200Tdi and 300Tdi pump are interchangeable in that either will fit and run either engine, though you really want the proper one for the engine on there as I believe there is a slight difference in tune/timing etc. 300Tdi pumps come in two flavours, one standard and one with the EDC gubbins on it. 200Tdi pumps come in Defender or Discovery versions, again a slightly different tune between them. I had issues with mine last year and had a Disco 200Tdi pump rebuilt to the Defender specification by Diesel Bob and all is well again.

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Okay not touching the bolt haha. In terms of the bolt it came from the locking plate of the injection pump!

That would be great if you could have a look at your injection pump and let me know. Im guessing it was like that last night when I was out driving with it and it was fine, just a "nippy" as ever! No loss of power and no diesel leaks anywhere from the pumo.

Theres a few injection pumps on ebay going second hand (cant afford a refurb just now) so might pick one of those up since everything seems to be pointing to mine being dead!

S

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I'd be very wary of s/h IP's , if the governor sticks and it goes to full throttle on start up it can end up self fuelling on the engine oil and

that'll be the end of your engine . At the very least I'd suggest before starting an unknown s/h IP removing breathers from air intake and probably the I/C to engine hose too just to be double sure , then if it does go full throttle it can't draw oil and has no boost and will stop on the key

..........I know this as it happened in my workshop a few weeks ago after fitting a s/h IP supplied by the client ....not pleasant , and I was lucky as I managed to stop it by blocking the turbo intake with something flat.

....a Tdi doing 10k + rpm inside the 'shop is a noise you never want to hear more than once

cheers

Steveb

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Well I have had another look tonight hoping to find something obvious but nope no such luck. There is in and out play on the shaft and if you rotate the shaft it pulls in (towards the back of the car and then back as I rotate it around.

So this means a new injector pump. So where do people recommend I go? Also what part number... Its a 300tdi from a discovery, it did have an EGR but no longer does. Its all mechanical (fitted to a 1987 90 so no electronics on it). Do I need the part numbers/serial numbers from the pump?

Im happy to fit a reconditioned pump, probably don't have time to have mine reconditioned!

Also in the of chance anyone around me (Central Scotland) have one lying around spare... The sooner I'm back on the road the better :)

S

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A recon FIP is the way to go. As I indicated previously I was certain it was the pump, incidentally, yes, you can run the Disco for a short time with the timing cover off, I've done it to tune the car - I "borrowed" a desk fan from the bride to blow air into the radiator (another ear bashing) and if you still have your old cover you can refurbish the bearing(s) -- there is a full description of how to do this in the archives, I did it with a custom machined shaft and two standard taper bearings, the total cost was well under the cost of a new cover and I can replace the bearings at any time easily. I can also remove the fan and grease them via a grease nipple.

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How long does Diesel Bob usually take? Im meant to be leaving for a holiday on Tuesday and with the weekend fast approaching I don't think I'm going to manage to get it down reconditioned and back up in time for me going away. I think I will end up having to buy a reconditioned one and then have my one reconditioned and sell it to make the money back if that makes sense.

S

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So found a reconditioned unit on eBay part number ERR4419 which is a 300tdi injection pump without any of the EGR bits which is fine as mine doesn't have any EGR bits fitted. Its mechanically controlled and from what I have read they pumps are interchangeable so it should work fine!

Once I have the money I will my pump reconditioned and sell it on or keep it on the shelf as a backup for myself or someone on here who ends up in the same spot as I'm in!

S

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Well its payday and I have treated myself a Reconditioned Injection Pump. It will arrive tomorrow :) So I'm going to get my old one out and prep for the new one and hope it all works because I don't have any other options!!

Thanks for all the help! If I have any other problems Im sure I will be back here to let you all know!

Thanks again

Stephen

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That's it all sorted now :) came in from work last night started to fit if about 11. Had a dead battery trying to prime the pump so gave up and went to bed at 1:30. Up this morning some jump leads later and it was sorted. Took it out a run and seems to be more responsive now so that's good!!

Thanks for all the help!

Stephen :)

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Did the pump come locked up with its advance set?

Now that you've got a spare I suggest that you strip and rebuild it yourself, if you're reasonably handy with tools. I can send you a strip and rebuild article that I found for a similar Bosch pump (there ARE some differences, however) if you're keen - all at your own risk, of course; PM me if you want it.

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Did the pump come locked up with its advance set?

Now that you've got a spare I suggest that you strip and rebuild it yourself, if you're reasonably handy with tools. I can send you a strip and rebuild article that I found for a similar Bosch pump (there ARE some differences, however) if you're keen - all at your own risk, of course; PM me if you want it.

Is it too big to attach here as a PDF??

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