Half empty fuel filter, time to finally put in an electric fuel pump.

[reb78]

Not quite half empty, but when i went to remove the fuel filter as part of a service on the 200tdi 110 today, the fuel filter was not full - about an inch and a half below the top had no fuel in it.

Now, normally, i would think lift pump, but the car starts easily, and on the motorway will easily reach 80 if i want - it had done all of this when i took it out to warm it up ready for the oil and filter change this morning. I tried hand priming with the lift pump and got nothing - i turned the crank through 360 degrees and tried the priming lever on every 1/8th of a turn, so i guess this does point to the lift pump, but the performance and easy starting confuse me with this.

I seem to be getting through these every 18 months or so. I do run SVO in it up to 80% at times, so i dont know if this is the reason for the rapid failures. I;ve tried most makes, LR genuine (cost an arm and a leg), delphi, allmakes and even britpart - none of them last.

I've asked about electric lift pumps before so this time i just need to do it. Can those who have fitted electric pumps post up a link to the pump they used and mention a bit of detail about the pipe fittings and wiring please?? I know Boydie has done it but i can never find his posts where he details it.

[Lewis]

My 90 was originally a 2.5 petrol and when I changed to the tdi I retained the in tank pump.

Is that an option for you?

[Boydie]

I fitted a 12 volt electric fuel pump on mu 300Tdi - wired to the fuel solenoid on the FIP, there is a description on the forum somewhere here about how I did it. It works brilliantly especially when it comes to priming the new fuel filter, - turn the ignition on, open the bleed valve on top of the filter and in seconds you have a constant fuel flow sans bubbles. I carry a spare pump just in case of future failure when I'm touring in the bush, but then I used to carry a spare mechanical one and the 12 volt one is cheaper and lighter.

[TSD]

I used a Facet Posi-Flow, but I don't recall which one, though I'm sure I've noted it on here previously if you search.

Can keep up with the 2.8 at full chat, which a new standard LR pump didn't seem to quite manage.

You don't need much pressure, and I'm not sure the anti-drainback valve would add anything either.

Edit : I kept a mech pump on the block, with a loop pipe filled with diesel as emergency spare - but it's not needed as the short pipework in underseat tank means I can hit 50mph without a lift pump at all.

[Landy-Novice]

I seem to be getting through these every 18 months or so. I do run SVO in it up to 80% at times, so i dont know if this is the reason for the rapid failures. I;ve tried most makes, LR genuine (cost an arm and a leg), delphi, allmakes and even britpart - none of them last.

how often do you change the fuel filter? if left a while would this not cause the pumps to fail? when running (clean/unused) svo, arn't you suppose to change filter every few months? :)

[reb78]

how often do you change the fuel filter? if left a while would this not cause the pumps to fail? when running (clean/unused) svo, arn't you suppose to change filter every few months? :)

Every 6k. I cant figure how changing the filter will affect the lift pump though as the pump is before the filter?

[reb78]

Boydie/TSD - I've had a long search, but i cant find either of your threads detailing the setup/parts used for the electric pumps etc. I must be using the wrong search terms - tried your username (in ""), electric lift pump lr4x4 in google but cant find them! So apologies, but a few questions ......

Flow rate??

With the pumps that TSD linked to, it seems that flow rate varies from about 25 - 35 US gallons per hour. I presume anything in this range would do as the entire fuel tank is only 80 litres (so around 17 imp gallons), so any of these pumps are capable of pumping the whole tank in one hour?

Pressure?

Is pressure important? i.e. is there a minimum pressure that i should not go under/max pressure that might cause problems?

Positioning the pump?

This is on my 110 so the long fuel lines come from the back to the lift pump. My first thought for simplicity was remove lift pump, make blanking plate and attach the electric pump in the same spot on the side of the engine block hoping that i can get one with the correct fittings to screw the current fuel lines into. Is that too simplistic? Is this too high (i need to get a tape measure out) - the detail say to mount no higher than 12 inches from the fuel level, so i presume i should measure this from the bottom of the tank? Will it be ok to put the pump in the engine bay given the long pipe run that will precede it or would it be better mounted in the rear wheel arch (not so keen on this as its a dirty position and means cutting the fuel line and adapting back there where all the road muck gathers)

Electric supply?

Is it literally a case of taking the feed from the FIP stop solenoid supply? No worries about the rating of that wire? Should i put an inline fuse in the feed to the pump after spurring off of that wire? Also, coming off of the FIP stop solenoid wire means that this will run the pump the whole time that i have the engine off, but ignition on for the radio? A button on the dash to turn the pump off would sort that though.

[TSD]

Don't use the forums search, it's about as good as LR anticorrosion coatings. Google can search the forum much more effectively

if you include "site:lr4x4.com" in your search.

Turns out I used the 4-7psi pump (thread)

As my setup is 300tdi style, the pump is mounted on the underside of the air filter bracket - so no pipework changes were required.

Fitted the pump with 8mm hose tail adapters, then use short lengths of fuel hose and jubilee clips to adapt to the nylon hardlines.

Power taken from the cutoff solenoid. Ideally should have a relay from alternator or oil pressure sensors for safety, but the round

tuits were on back order.

My pump is probably lifting more than 12" from the bottom of the tank, but not much. SVO is more viscous of course.

Flow rate should exceed maximum demand by a healthy margin, so the pressure at the injection pump doesn't fluctuate, but not

massively so, no point in circulating a massive amount of extra fuel for no reason.

[reb78]

Thanks. Slightly embarrassing that the link is to my old thread. That's really helpful stuff though.

[reb78]

Right, researching these pumps this evening.

This one

http://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk/facet-posi-flow-electric-fuel-pump-40-70-psi-60106---with-straight-unions-906-p.asp

Or this one will do I think

http://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk/facet-60302-posi-flow-pump-7-10psi-incl-check-valve-18364-p.asp

Would the check valve actually be a good idea if I mount this in the engine bay given the length of pipe it has to pull through from the tank on the 110? If I went for the pump in the first link (same as TSD) I suppose I could always add a non return valve like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-Way-Aluminium-Non-Return-Valve-Oil-Fuel-Petrol-Diesel-6mm-8mm-10mm-/331163201110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item4d1add6e56 at a later date if needed.

They also all suggest to mount near the tank and below the fuel level. Will it cope on the 110 in the engine bay?? I guess this bit of Facets FAQs are worrying me.

Can I mount the pump in my car's engine compartment?

We recommend that you mount the fuel pump no more that 12 inches from the fuel supply (gas tank). All our Electronic fuel pumps will push fuel rather than pull fuel. Some pumps only have suction limit of 12 inches, therefore you should mount as close as possible to the tank.

[reb78]

Reading a bit more late last night and worrying about the ability of the posi-flow pumps to pull from my rear tank, i came across this:

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?54496-How-to-replace-your-mechanical-fuel-pump-with-a-Facet-Duralift-electric-fuel-pump

Apparently the Facet Dura lift will lift up to 10ft and should have no problems drawing out of my tank. Its a bit more expensive than the posi flow ones, but might be a better option. Link here

http://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk/facet-dura-lift-pump-40222-12v-1922-p.asp

Two things:

1. There were some mentions that the pumps didnt like 80% plus WMO - so might not like SVO either. I don't often run above a 70% mix unless it is really hot, so i think i should be ok. Apparently, even the pumps that the veg oil sites recommend aren't rated for VO unless you spend big money.

2. There was some talk on that oilburners forum about the need for a fuel pressure regulator as too high a pressure can apparently advance the pump timing? Most didn't bother and didn't notice any effect. Does anyone know what pressures our mechanical lift pumps would put out? (A post on AULRO suggests 11psi but that was the only one i found and sounds high given the 5-7 that these guys on the oil burner forum were talking about)

I think i might give this a go unless anyone can see any massive reasons why not?

[andy2986]

Hi,

Im about to do the same thing to my 300Tdi Disco.

I am going to use the same Facet lift pump that you have listed here, I know is more expensive than some of the other that people have used but I liked the glass filter on the bottom of it and it has a good lift capability.

Wiring wise I will probably wire it up to the oil pressure switch with a trigger feed from the stop solenoid to a relay. Im concerned that it will then only pump when the engine is running, some fuel pumps have a "burst" of 12v given them when you first turn the ignition on to prime themselves. Will work that one out if it is a problem.

maybe have a manual waterproof push or momentary button near the filter or pump to prime the fuel system in the engine bay that works regardless of the engine being off

Andy

[reb78]

Hi Andy, good to hear someone else going down this route who has come across the same pump! My plan with the wiring is a fused feed straight off of the battery to a switch on the dash for now. Might confuse thieves for a short time as well I suppose. Long term plan is a dual tank system for SVO and I will probably relay the pump then I think and trigger it from the pollak changeover valve.

Just come across this regarding the cummins lift pumps and pressures

http://www.diesel-service-parts.com/cummins-lift-pumps.html

So if they are applicable to the LR tdi which I think runs a very similar (same ? FIP) then the pressures of the dura-lift would suit the fuel system well.

[TSD]

Unless you're run out of fuel, you have a FIP which is full of diesel, and which contains its own lift pump, which can suck diesel from the fuel filter.

More than enough to run the engine until the oil pressure comes up. I get the oil pressure light out easily enough just cranking, so no worries there.

As I previously mentioned, I can easily do 50mph plus with no lift pump fitted. Miketomcat drove from the Pyrennees to the UK in his 200tdi Disco, with the standard lift pump bypassed. (and he was doing 70 on the flat when we parted company somewhere outside Toulouse).

You can get a fuel filter head with a plunger pump on it, if you really think that running out of diesel with a flat battery and a busted starter motor is a big risk.

[andy2986]

I haven't got round to fitting the fuel pump yet, so wasn't sure if it only working when the oil light goes out was a problem or not for starting.

A lot of the other guys have just wired it to the stop solenoid so it would run as soon as it sees the ignition switched on.

The button by the pump is just a silly idea ive been toying with to help with bleeding the system though is probably overkill and unnecessary

Andy

[TSD]

Just wiring it to the stop solenoid isn't really a good idea - in an accident it's too easy for the engine to be stopped, and the pump to continue, happily emptying the tank onto the floor

One of these days I'll get rid of the temporary wiring and do mine 'right', now it's had 4 years or so of 'testing'

Nothing silly about a pump button, but my truck already has more than enough 'features' I've added along the way, and for each one I probably added two extra ways for it to go wrong!

I'd be happy to know I could pop two wires off the relay and join them if I ever need a long prime on the pump, and call it good enough.

[reb78]

Some good comments going on here.

I've ordered all the bits now, so hopefully i might get to fit it on saturday morning.

[andy2986]

Reb, im getting a blanking plate CNC'd for me (ive removed the old lift pump) would you like me to ask my chap to do another for you ?

One of my many other projects is the removal of the vacuum pump and replacing that with an electric one. He made me a blanking plate up for that....

Andy

[reb78]

That could be good Andy. How much are we talking? Vacuum pump is on my list too, but a long way down it!

[reb78]

As my setup is 300tdi style, the pump is mounted on the underside of the air filter bracket - so no pipework changes were required.

Fitted the pump with 8mm hose tail adapters, then use short lengths of fuel hose and jubilee clips to adapt to the nylon hardlines.

Was this literally cut the old connector and a short length of pipe off of the old hard line and then slip the new fuel hose over a length of it? Any problems with leaks?

[TSD]

Literally that. Use new pieces of the right size hose, and proper jubilee clamps or (even better) proper fuel line clamps if you can find some.

Make sure the hardline butts up to the end of the metal tail, to minimise the space for air bubbles to collect.

If it's all properly clean, you biggest problem will be getting it off again.

[Boydie]

The electric pump I settled on is a HEP-02A - easily purchased on EBay and well priced, I purchased 3, 1 to install, 1 as a spare and 1 to "dissect" to see how the sucker works.

It's a simple electric magnet/coil with plastic type spring loaded ball valves. A check/non-return valve isn't required.

I mounted on the inside of the wheel guard as low as possible and below the vacuum brake unit and with 1/4"id high pressure fuel hose connected it to the fuel filter and the tank supply. The fuel filter banjo fitting is a vey tight fit into the 1/4" hose, no clips are required. Likewise the existing plastic fuel line t the mechanical pump will fit inside the 1/4" hose.

I then cut down a spare mechanical LR fuel pump, removing all the pump leaving just the flange, I filled the remaining "hole" with liquid alloy plastic and made up a gasket and used this to seal the port in the engine block, it doesn't leak.

The pump is wired to the fuel solenoid on the Fuel Injection Pump so it starts pumping as soon as the ignition is on. When fitting a new fuel filter all I now have to do to purge the filter is fit the filter, crack open the top bleed screw and turn on the ignition, the electric pump fully purges the filter in about 30 seconds.

[andy2986]

That could be good Andy. How much are we talking? Vacuum pump is on my list too, but a long way down it!

Im sending off the gasket to him today (he uses that as a template) wouldn't have thought it would be more than a tenner

Andy

[reb78]

Right, All fitted. Its wired to the battery via a fused cable and switch on the dash. I didn't want to splice into the stop solenoid wire as i don't know if that circuit is fused on my era 110 (?) and want to make sure that anything i add is protected properly.

Here are some pics and a video. I'm quite happy with it really. The pump itself is a bit smaller than a fuel filter. My only criticism is that it is noisy with the engine off, but it doesn't matter as you cant hear it with the engine on and with the dash switch, it wouldn't be on whilst i was sat in the truck, engine off, listening to the radio (which is would be if i'd used the stop solenoid wire)

 

The old lift pump was dead as a dodo - its still fitted so as to cover the hole in the block. Nothing came out of it even though there was a little diesel left in it. Gonna go for a drive now and see how it goes.

Andy - if the blanking plate is only a tenner, could you ask your chap to do one for me please if its not too late?

Edited November 28, 2017 by reb78

[Mo Murphy]

How was it then Rich ?