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MS2 JE V8 help please!


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Hi

I have read through some of the other posts on here such as the basics and the "so you have got you ms running" thread and am still having issues

I have a JE 4.2 converted to a hotwire top end with a ms2 ecu i have got to the point it "starts" but when it does run its only on four maybe 5 if i am lucky! the 3 that don't run are the rearmost three on the left bank. as far as i can tell it is timed up, seems to have a spark on all 8 and so far as i can tell has fuel getting to all 8 did a compression test and all 8 are roughly the same. i think it is running too rich but if anyone has any ideas as to what else to check or what i might be doing wrong please let me know as i am running out of ideas!

Cheers

Reuben

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Have you:

Tried new spark plugs?

Replaced the HT leads with Magnecor.

Checked the ignition timing with a light on the timing mark.

Are the compression pressures within specification?

Checked that the injectors are actually spraying and not dribbling - send them to a specialist for cleaning and checking.

Cheers Charlie

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What ignition system are you running? Triple check that leads are on the correct plugs, but that probably isnt your problem with three on one bank dead... And as above check the injectors are opening with one of those led lights that go in the plug and then make sure all flowing/spraying with no carp in the fuel rail and regulator

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Check the basics (fuel, spark) before changing bits or fiddling with settings.

How is the MS2 built, what's driving the sparks?

You're near enough Nige (Megasquirt-V8) that if all else fails I'm sure you could bribe him into making a house call.

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Hi Guys thanks for the replies

the plugs are brand new, compression is 165psi give or take 5 psi on all cylinders, i have got one of the led light injector checkers on order so will try that tommorow, the injectors where bought as reconditioned so i hope they are ok :unsure: the ms2 is an extra efi (phil ringwood) one firing a pair of ford gen2 coil packs.

i guess the main thing to check now ie the biggest unknown is the injectors?

Reuben

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Nige, no i dont think it has, i was probably kidding myself when i thought it was as was so happy just to have the thing running however briefly/badly!

FF It is a new install yes i have been over the wiring two or three times but will go over it again later just to be sure!

cheers

Reuben

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Nige will attest, people have gone over their own wiring 10x before now hunting for problems and still missed a mistake, because they wired it and their brain "knows" it's right you just get blinded to it. We've all done it at least once! Main thing is be methodical & logical, don't skip any steps/checks and never say to yourself "I know that bit is OK because..."

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Hi Guys thanks for the replies

the plugs are brand new, compression is 165psi give or take 5 psi on all cylinders, i have got one of the led light injector checkers on order so will try that tommorow, the injectors where bought as reconditioned so i hope they are ok :unsure: the ms2 is an extra efi (phil ringwood) one firing a pair of ford gen2 coil packs.

i guess the main thing to check now ie the biggest unknown is the injectors?

Reuben

I assume that has a few internal coil drivers or external ignitors, either way MS2 has an output test mode so you can make it spark each of the A, B, C and D coil outputs one at a time and it does the same thing for A and B injector banks, you havent blown a fuse for one of the injector banks have you?

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Ok will get on with going through the wiring again later gave it a check over, all the injectors have a pulse with a noid light still running badly on 4/5, i will give the test mode thing a go, the only thing i did notice was that the engine does not make much vacuum at all at tickover and was wondering whether this mite be caused by/causing the problem as i know the vaccum affects the %load read by the ecu?

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MAP pipe is definitely connected, when you say to the wrong place i have it comping from the bottom of the plenum in one of the 3 holes in the side (ie where the brake vacuum hose is connected too, i cant find any leaks in the hose itself, its running a non standard cam (whatever a JE dakar came with?) dont know how much that would affect the idle vacuum?

cheers

Reuben

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Check that the connection you are using into the plenum is a simple hole - some of them have restrictors in them and I vaguely remember one of them even having a one way valve.

What MAP are you seeing at idle ?

What MAP are you seeing before you start the engine ?

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Dave, connected to a bung with a hole in it, seeing 100kpa before starting goes down to around 50 at idle which i get isnt low enough! any idea what i should be seeing?

i cant find an obvious air leak anywhere, is there any gain to be had from moving the map pipe around?

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50 is a bit high but not atypical, I've seen similar figures on an RV8 hotwire from that position on the plenum, you normally only get lower than that on overrun. Looking at an old log file from a 3.9 V8 (that was running fine and used the same measuring point) 50 isn't far off the mark.

It might be worth running a quick logging session and posting the log file here.

Are you getting any resets on the MS2 ? (Sometimes noise from the ignition drivers can cause resets which will cause bad running)

For the ignition system it'd be worth putting a fixed timing light on and marking the crank at 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees. You can then check the ignition timing for each pair of cylinders - you don't need to be 100% accurate but it's worth checking that with the light connected to 1 you are seeing the mark around TDC, 3 at 90, 7 at 180 and 5 at 270. An incorrectly configured toothed wheel setting will give bad ignition timing, getting worse towards the end of the firing order.

Which type of timing wheel are you using (36-1 ?) posting the .msq you are using will allow me to check your wheel decoder settings. The settings for the Rover crank position sensor are very different versus a 36-1 wheel, the missing tooth forces a counter reset so earlier cylinders are less effected by a bad setting than later ones.

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Dave, its a 36-1, i don't think its getting any resets,

Had a good bit of progress tonight as i actually had it going on 8! i did this by changing the timing to static 9degrees (to check the timing again) and then changing the first few columns of the fuel table to one fixed value (i chose 20) as it seemed to be a decent idle value, at this point i noticed that the engine actually idles around 70-80% load! I think this maybe the problem? is there anyway to recalibrate the sensor to make it more appropriate it seems to be 45-50kpa at idle.

I have attatched the msq file now i have changed the map back on the fuel table, i dont know if the fuel table seems a bit rich and the spark table a bit much as it seemed to idle nicely at 9deg advance and 20 on the fuel table!

Cheers

Reuben

90_new.msq

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Sounds promising, I've not used the calculated load % for MS2 myself, I tend to stick with MAP on the Y axis for my fuel and spark tables because I moved my maps from MS1-Extra. I need to check what the algorithm is but from what I remember it's a mixture of throttle position and MAP. With that in mind, make sure your TPS is calibrated ! The calculated load % is a good option, it just adds another variable into the equation versus straight MAP. You could take the calculation out altogether and just use MAP as your primary load for fuel and ignition.

One thing I did notice during a quick check of your msq is the Barometric correction has an odd setting. You have it set to use a second sensor for determining barometric pressure, if you don't actually have an independent sensor (which would be unusual) you should set it to "Initial MAP reading" (it's in "General, lags" in Basic Settings in Tuner Studio. Without a second sensor using your current settings you might be getting some really odd fuel and load calculations as a result although it should recognise this and dismiss the rogue reading so it may be a red herring.

You'll find as you get the engine tuned in around idle your MAP will start to drop further, it's one of those things that you end up tweaking and re-tweaking as you get closer to the ideal.

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TPS is calibrated, i do actually have a second sensor for barometric correction but i might try and see if it works better by turning the other sensor off, i am pretty sure the odd load reading is caused by the vacuum setting though maybe its best to try and recalibrate that!

Cheers

Reuben

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TPS is calibrated, i do actually have a second sensor for barometric correction but i might try and see if it works better by turning the other sensor off, i am pretty sure the odd load reading is caused by the vacuum setting though maybe its best to try and recalibrate that!

That's posh ! :) If it's fitted, leave it as it is.

I can't find any info at the moment on how it converts MAP and TPS to engine load, Phil or James are the best people to ask about that (they wrote the code).

You might need to change the maps so they use MAP instead of the load algorithm or it may be that, using speed density, the load % is actually the MAP reading anyway - perhaps a log file will show if this is actually the case ?

For a MAP base map I'd normally use steps between 20kpa and 100kpa with 5 point steps around the idle point.

Can you post a log file ? Be interesting to see how the load/MAP/TPS/req fuel all co relate and it might throw up something else to look at.

I think your MAP reading is OK for an engine that's not been fine tuned yet so I wouldn't worry too much about that at the moment. I know some people can get the MAP down much lower, perhaps as low as 20, but that's unrealistic on an RV8. I managed to get my LS1 down to around 30 after a lot of fine tuning.

Your ignition map is very aggressive at the bottom end for an RV8 and probably a bit tame at the top end, most of the RV8 maps I've seen coming off rolling road sessions start at around 8 or 9 and hitting around 32 at high rpm with WOT, yours starts at 15 (ish) at the bottom end and only hits 29 at the top end although it's up over 40 in the mid range, low load area and 36 in the high range which is OK but might be a bit over optimistic in the mid range (that might be to help cruise speed ?) area. Not sure what sort of cam the JE has though so that could be OK.

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One step forwards two steps back... cant get it to idle properly on 8 anymore, all 8 manifolds are getting hot but the right bank much hotter than the left very lumpy again and generally sounding a bit rubbish :( i tried it on alpha_n which i believe is just using the tps and it wasn't any better.

to me the map thing seems a bit of a vicious cycle ie when the engine is running badly its not producing much vacuum so gives an odd figure to the sensor thus not helping it to run any better and if anything worse

Dave, as far as i can tell in speed density the %load is just map but could be completely wrong!

when you say on a base map you would use steps between 20kpa and 100kpa with 5 point steps around the idle i am a little confused as to what you mean have you got any examples?

regarding the ignition map have yo got any maps showing the bins around this or is there likely to be one on here? i though it seemed a little aggressive around the bottom end too when i had it running best it was fixed at 9

i am not particularly worried about it running perfectly just well and on 8 i bought into megasquirt fully expecting to have to have it setup by somebody who actually knows what they are doing! :lol: i was just hoping to have it running well enough to maybe drive it to wherever! and also not wasting expensive time at a rolling road to actually get it running on all cylinders consistently, it seems at the moment the more i read and play with megasquirt and tuner studio the less i understand it :( although thats almost certainly down to my brain getting fried by it! :lol: everyone's help is gratefully received!

i will post up some log files when i get some hopefully tommorow!

Thanks again

Reuben

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