Potentially dangerous recovery practice again!

[madmatt]

At the end of the day any recovery method is dangerous, if the people involved haven't had any training or instruction, I would never own a Kerr even though its safe use was covered in my off road driver training. , I have a winch but its for commercial purposes and I have had two days training in its safe use and have 6 years experiance winching in a commercial environment.

I don't know what the answer is for playdays other than stay well away form others doing their own dangerou recoveries!

[leeds]

The club I am in bans the use of KERR ropes This occurred after a recovery point ripped off whilst a KERR recovery was taking place. The recovery point (well a towing point to be more precise) bounced off the bonnet and windscreen on the recovering vehicle.

Recovery points are now part of the scrutineering process as well.

I have carried small pieces of logs to prevent ropes tightening on each other when connected together. They will be replaced by some carpet as soon as possible.

Never seen the carpet trick done before. The advatange of these sorts of threads we can all learn something. The people who probably need to learn most probably don't read these sort of forums.

Regards

Leeds

[Petergg]

Never seen the carpet trick done before.

A news paper works just as well, or in your case you could use your wallet!!

Another thing that I have seen is a recovery rope being used as a winch extension not only does it allow the winch rope/Cable to unwind it takes energy up from winching.

Peter

[Paul Humphreys]

Never seen the carpet trick done before.

Regards

Leeds

Anyone got any pics of the carpet in use?

Paul

[BogMonster]

All good comments but one of the things that many fail to appreciate is that if you are stuck in the middle of nowhere, doing something that might in theory be slightly dangerous, is a damn site better than walking 10 or 20 miles. I've had to use two long tow ropes shackled together on the end of a winch line at full stretch, to pull somebody up a long steep hill, I knew it was wrong but I did it anyway because the alternative was to leave a vehicle behind because there was no way he was going to get up the hill and no other way up. There wasn't that much strain on the rope (just lack of traction) so it was ok in those circumstances.

Likewise for stretchy ropes, if you rely on a dead pull in the ground conditions here you'd spend a lot of time trying to get some people out. All my stuff is decent (apart from the Td5 type rear crossmember ) and I won't do anything that is likely to break and give somebody a face full of metal. If I can avoid using shackles or doing a snatch or whatever, then I will, but sometimes, in the real world, needs must and then the best thing to do is just to keep everybody non-essential right out of the way and use common sense.

Like anything, I think if you know the rules you can bend them a bit as long as you are aware of the risks of doing so. I can see if you are running a site/comp where litigation is a risk, then it might be wise to err on the side of caution in what you let people do, but if everybody present is a consenting adult (to coin a phrase).....

[Ex Member]

Joining straps/rops with shackles has caused the death of a few people. Straps must be joined properly as shown below. It is extremely important that the rigging eqipment and recovery points on the vehicles be much stronger than the strap or winch line.

I really wish people were forced to take accredited courses before venturing off road.

[Diff]

Anyone got any pics of the carpet in use?

Paul

Since I started the thread, I felt it was my duty to go outside and take a few pics of how to use the carpet!

You can use a rolled up newspaper or magazine, but they tend to disintegrate when its wet!

Some people use a stick as shown in Red90s pics. A small bit of rolled up carpet or sacking has the advantage of not carrying any weight or sharp edges should something break.

Sometimes you may not have easy access to both ends of both ropes. This means you may not be able to thread the ropes through each others loops to achieve the join shown.

Edited to say: As Red90 has pointed out, you don't actually need both ropes loose to achieve the preferred join as depicted above.

This second method puts a tighter bend in one of the ropes, which is why the first method is the preferred one.

I only had one recovery rope to hand, so the smaller rope is for illustration only.

For anyone who is unsure of the purpose of the carpet: It is there to stop the ropes pulling too tightly together, and makes it easy to separate the ropes after a recovery, even with cold wet hands.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Diff

[Ex Member]

In your bottom pics you can adjust the loops to match the upper ones. Really, give it a try.

I sure hope those ropes are not for recovery.

On another note... Nylon straps should be used for vehicle to vehicle pulls as they have some stretch. Normal rigging straps are polyester and should only be used for anchors and such.

[Diff]

In your bottom pics you can adjust the loops to match the upper ones. Really, give it a try.

I sure hope those ropes are not for recovery.

On another note... Nylon straps should be used for vehicle to vehicle pulls as they have some stretch. Normal rigging straps are polyester and should only be used for anchors and such.

Doh! Now you have pointed it out, I see what you mean!

The thinner of the ropes pictured is just a general purpose rope I had lying around the garage to use for the pictures last night. The other is a 12 ton offroad competition approved recovery rope(not a 'dead' rope) which needs a clean after Sunday!

Regards,

Diff

[DefcoL]

Hi Diff

Really useful thread, have found it very informative.

Re: Kinetic RR and strops I was wondering if there is a recommended way of cleaning after muddy use

or more importantly if there are any definite no - no's in order to maintain effectiveness?

Re: Safe recovery practice’s does anyone run or know of training weekend or can a group of

trusted old hands from this forum get together and run a recovery w/e with LR4x4 cert of completion?

I say this as have been to a few different sites where even the organisers seem to have ' lets see how quick

we can recover this one as if to impress the crowd'

Bits of old rope lashed to anything available

Very small shackles

Pulling in the wrong direction

letting spectators crowd round and way too close to cable being used to Snatch

Even poofy football has trained linesman

4x4 offroading is potentially a very dangerous but now recognised sport

So why can we not train and run accredited marshals at events? it would lift the profile of the sport

lets ensure that safety really does come first

Lawrence

[Diff]

I don't own a KERR and whilst very effective, I wouldn't be in a hurry to recommend them for play day use. It is my understanding that they have a more limited life than more conventional nylon recovery ropes, and will weaken over time and use.

With regard to cleaning of ropes and strops/straps, I believe clean water rinsing is probably best for most materials.

Pressure washing can force more dirt and grit into the fibres of a rope or strop (particularly relevent to KERRs because of their more open 'weave'). In theory, over time and use the dirt can abrade the fibres within any rope and weaken it.

Some detergents may have a detrimental effect on some materials - not sure about this.

Ideally the ropes should then be left somewhere well ventilated to dry naturally, but preferably not too slowly.

Some materials degrade faster in sunlight, so once they are dry they should be packed away.

I am sure others will have more info on the training side of things.

Regards,

Diff

[Bigwood]

I don't own a KERR and whilst very effective, I wouldn't be in a hurry to recommend them for play day use. It is my understanding that they have a more limited life than more conventional nylon recovery ropes, and will weaken over time and use.

With regard to cleaning of ropes and strops/straps, I believe clean water rinsing is probably best for most materials.

Pressure washing can force more dirt and grit into the fibres of a rope or strop (particularly relevent to KERRs because of their more open 'weave'). In theory, over time and use the dirt can abrade the fibres within any rope and weaken it.

Some detergents may have a detrimental effect on some materials - not sure about this.

Ideally the ropes should then be left somewhere well ventilated to dry naturally, but preferably not too slowly.

Some materials degrade faster in sunlight, so once they are dry they should be packed away.

I am sure others will have more info on the training side of things.

Regards,

Diff

I fully agree with all said, whilst in the forces I witnesed some horors regarding whinches. Not quite the same due to size but when a whinch cable got to the point of oozing water out of it people started to run, then it started to hum, then it let go with a large snatch block atached. The path of the snatch block and cable cut through the roof of a 4 Tonner. Winching stuck tank out of ditch at too sharp an angle pulled the towing eye off the tank, eye complete with cable and snatch blocks to make 4to1 became airborne.Stupidity was the reson behind this. I know my F-Reg 90 is on its origonal chasis and must be getting frail by now so when I did get stuck my mates said we should use both towing eyes and a bridle to spread the load. Also a big mistake I often see is people putting a strop and shakle or roap over tow balls. I wouldnt like to be the one behind iff things jump off. As said to me listen and take advise whilst still alive by an old wise REME recovery mechanic.

[Paul64]

Dew110CSW - a KERR is a kinetic rope! KERR stands for Kinetic energy recovery rope.

A 'standard' recovery rope will stretch approx 5% to 15% depending on make and type of material. A KERR has about 30% stretch and as such will store a MASSIVE amount of energy. Even rope with 5% Stretch can recoil with enormous force.

Trojan - A shackle could fail, but it isn't necessarily the problem area. ANY failure anywhere between the two vehicles will result in that shackle in the middle being catapulted at high speed.

Regards,

Diff

I must admit this whole thread has scared the c**p out me, and I haven't been off road in a serious way. Where is the best place to learn the ropes (pardon the pun!)? I am going to book a week of leave off soon drive back to the UK, and will try and cram in a meet with a short course. Anybody used Protrax before?

[leeds]

Polymer ropes and strops can normally be made from four main materials . These are polyethylene, polypropylene, polyamides (nylons) and polyesters. These groups of materials cover a wide range of materials, with widely different properties. The way these materials are processed can also effect their properties. Then the way the material is made into a rope or strop can also effect the final properties.

The properties of main interest here is strength and extension to break A rope or strop with a lowers strength but higher extension to break requires more energy to break it in comparison to a higher strength lower extension to break item.

The steeper the load extension curve the harsher the forces experienced by the vehicles during a recovery.

In general terms nylons and polyesters are stonger then normal polyethylene and polypropylenes. Polyester has a steeper load extension then nylons.

Plasma etc is a gel spun polyethylene (hence not normal polyethylene) has a high strength and low extension to break then nylon and polyester.

In my opinion the best ropes for off road use is nylon. This has the best combination of strength and extension. KERR ropes are nylon ropes but of a plaited type construction which gives it the extra stretch.

The general strops available are made from polyester and are strong and have a relatively steep load extension curve. These are good for anchorage type situations but would give a harsh recoverery if used in that type of situation. I have a long nylon strop (made from climbing webbing) which has more stretch then a polyester strop but not as much as a nylon rope. This could be used for a gentle recovery.

Plasma makes a good winch rope due to its high strength and low extension. The low extension means it has a lot less stored energy then an equivalent steel rope which has a higher extension to break. In the case of winch rope failure the plasma is safer then steel due to the smaller amount of stored energy in it. A plasma type rope is not good in a shock load situation. OK in winching it should not occur BUT image the vehicle being recovered manages to drive forward creating slak in the plasma rope and then loses traction slides backwards which would put a shock load on a plasma rope. That could be possibly bad news.

Hope my ramblings helps to explain some of the difference between different materials etc.

Regards

Leeds

[FridgeFreezer]

I can heartily recommend the services of Honitonhobbit for LANTRA training, the Shire LRC have trained a lot of their committee & marshals now with him and everyone has said what a good course it was - and some of the guys on it have been doing this for far too long Personally I enjoyed the bit where I had to get someone else's vehicle stuck

Perhaps we could try to sort some kind of training day at one of the sites we use if people were up for it and a format could be agreed upon (and obviously trainer/s as required). I will raise the idea with the the committee to see what is said just to get an idea.

[Paul64]

I can heartily recommend the services of Honitonhobbit for LANTRA training, the Shire LRC have trained a lot of their committee & marshals now with him and everyone has said what a good course it was - and some of the guys on it have been doing this for far too long Personally I enjoyed the bit where I had to get someone else's vehicle stuck

Perhaps we could try to sort some kind of training day at one of the sites we use if people were up for it and a format could be agreed upon (and obviously trainer/s as required). I will raise the idea with the the committee to see what is said just to get an idea.

That sounds great. If it does come off I would like to join in. Thanks Paul