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D2 V8 into D1 V8


James NZ
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Hiya,

I feel my D1 V8 is getting a little tired*. The engine doesn't have quite the go it once had and the transfer box clunks due to the worn mainshaft. The auto box itself works great. I have a D2 that was written off by the insurers. The D2 V8 has a freshly rebuilt top end from the cam shaft up. So I'm thinking of chucking this into the D1. How do I get round the engine management system. Can I use the D2 ECU and loom? I'm also thinking of fitting either the D2 transfer box on its own or transfer and auto box. But then I'll need to look at the auto box ecu as well?

Any ideas/advice greatfully accepted.

Cheers, james

* Motor has 181k km's on the clock. During my ownership its been serviced every 5000k's, including the oil filter. My D1 has absolutely no rust and rebuilding Rover V8's here in NZ is frighteningly expensive. And I like my truck...Lots.

I have driven the D2 (illegally :o ) and it goes great. But getting it re-registered in NZ is quite a hurdle. It was written off as a small tree landed on the roof and took out the sunroof.

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It's no doubt all possible, but the D2 ECM and TCM will need some extra inputs that the D1 may not be able to provide. Immobiliser can probably be programmed out, apart from that you should probably go through the RAVE (D1 and D2) and see what external inputs the ECM and TCM want to see.

Easiest will probably be to Megasquirt the engine, but that doesn't solve the autobox issues, obviously.

What year is the D2?

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Bowie69.

Oops, sorry. I forget to say that the D1 is 3.9 injected.

elbekko

I'll sit down and start studying the books. The D2 is a '99 model. I think it's probaly best to go D1 auto and D2 transfer case. I had thought of Megasquirt as I have looked into for another non Rover project. Is it possible to use the D2 coil packs etc with megasquirt?

Cheers, james

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Yup, you can just connect the D2 coil packs to the EDIS (or direct coil drive if you want, but people on this forum seem to be against it).

A D2 should be a Bosch (or "Thor"), with the banana manifold. Still possible to Megasquirt, just make sure to buy the right parts.

Using the D1 auto box should work, you may need to mix and match flywheels, flex plates, ..., but it should all bolt right up.

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I would think the easiest thing would be to swap the engine over and retain the D1's induction and ECU.

If you want to use the D2's "Thor" setup, you'll likely need the ECU (or 3rd party to control it).

Failing that, you could just swap in all of the D2 including the ECU. Not sure what this would involve though.

If you off road, the D2's autobox is superior as it locks up in low range, while the older units don't.

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Thanks for the replies guys. Part of the appeal of using the Thor motor is the fact that it makes slightly more torque. It also did away with the D1 distributor amongst other refinements. I think I'll have a crack at using the D2 ECU. Otherwise I'll megasquirt it. I do have another use for the D1 v8 when funds allow.

Drumstick, you mentioned that the D2 trannie locks in low range? This is through the sport/manual switch? My D1 when shifted manually into say 1st will hold that gear.

Cheers, james

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The older ZF boxes don't use lock up in low range.

i.e. an auto gearbox uses a viscous coupling, called a torque converter. This allows slip, so the input rpm can be higher than the output rpm. Brilliant as it allows massive torque multiplication.

But off road, it also means you get next to no engine braking either.

A lock up torque converter also uses a clutch plate to give a direct 1:1 drive through the converter. The D2 should lock up in low range to give you superior engine braking. But this will be done via the electronics and the box in the D2. Although I'm not sure off the top of my head if the box is different, just the converter or how it's all controlled.

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I think I'll have a crack at using the D2 ECU.

Cheers, james

My understanding is that the D2 ECU (Thor) will not work as it needs to talk to the relevant VIN relevant BCU (Body Control Unit) from the D2 which will in turn will most likely not work in a D1. I hope I am seriously wrong in this as I am also looking at putting a Thor into another vehicle. If you look at the Megasquirt Thor kit you had better be sitting down when look at the price in Kiwi dollars.

Would be great to get the D2 ECU to work but my investigations has shown it is almost impossible (here I hope someone chimes in and says I am wrong and tells me how to do it).

The obvious solution is to put the 3.9 cam (best to get a new one) timing cover and the required spacer mod on the 4.0 so you can use the 3.9 dizzy and use the 4CUX injection system on the 4.0. Not sure what the power difference would be but it will be a little less but not necessarily a major issue in day to day driving. OR put the 4CUX injection system on and Megajolt the ignition and not worry about the dizzy etc.

Please let us know how you go.

Garry

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My understanding is that the D2 ECU (Thor) will not work as it needs to talk to the relevant VIN relevant BCU (Body Control Unit) from the D2 which will in turn will most likely not work in a D1. I hope I am seriously wrong in this as I am also looking at putting a Thor into another vehicle. If you look at the Megasquirt Thor kit you had better be sitting down when look at the price in Kiwi dollars.

Shouldn't be VIN-locked, but is definitely programmed to work with a BCU. Not sure if anyone has reprogrammed it yet, it's a Motronic 5.2.1 ECU for anyone who feels like searching.

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I think Mark Adams can reprogramme these THOR ECUs to be independent of the Body Control Module. I emailed him about this ages ago - got no response, though I suspect that a phone call may work better. I believe his work is resold by RPI engineering, whom I've not heard too many positive reports about. There was an Aussie outfit that could also bypass the BCM, google.au may help?

G.

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Thanks for the replies guys.

I thought I could fit the BCM as well so started reading the workshop manual at lunch time to see what it controls with the idea of maybe having "loops" for inputs, but I don't think it will be fooled that easy and honestly it's a little beyond me at this stage. Still catching up with being out of the trade for so long.

I don't want to change any parts on the thor V8 as it had over $5k NZ spent on it having the heads rebuilt, new camshaft, followers, timing chain/gears etc. So it seems at odds too fit D1 parts to it. So I'm now thinking that Megasquirt (quite keen to put one together and upgrade my skills) and Compushift would be the way to go. Has anybody had experience with the Compushift?

Cheers, james

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Getting the BCM to work outside a D2 will indeed be quite a job.

Swapping parts over to get a distributor would also result in a worse oil pump, so not really a good idea.

MS + Compushift should work. No experience with it myself though. The D1 autobox can handle the power just fine, especially if it's just a 4.0, so not sure if the Compushift is worth it.

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Quote
"I don't want to change any parts on the thor V8 as it had over $5k NZ spent on it having the heads rebuilt, new camshaft, followers, timing chain/gears etc. So it seems at odds too fit D1 parts to it. So I'm now thinking that Megasquirt."

And you will need to find in excess of another $1700NZ for the megasquirt - while no more expensive than other aftermarket injection systems, is another big cost just because the D2 ECU cannot be made to work independently of a D2 without considerable work

Another option is to investigate whether the 4cux ECU will work the Thor injectors - so no longer sequential but nevertheless workable and a lot cheaper.

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And you will need to find in excess of another $1700NZ for the megasquirt - while no more expensive than other aftermarket injection systems, is another big cost just because the D2 ECU cannot be made to work independently of a D2 without considerable work

Another option is to investigate whether the 4cux ECU will work the Thor injectors - so no longer sequential but nevertheless workable and a lot cheaper.

It'll be pretty difficult. 4CUX doesn't have an electronic ignition system, which is why the cam/front cover/ancillaries would need to be swapped. The Bosch injectors will fire fine (don't forget to swap the fuel pump to get the correct pressure).

I can't find anything online about someone removing the immobiliser from the Bosch ECU, which is somewhat strange. So then you're pretty much limited to another EFI system.

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Hi guys,

elbekko, the Compushift allows sports/manual mode amongst other things so will allow the torque converter to lock up in low range as mr drumstick mentioned above. I'd like to think that I'm upgrading? My disco goes off road extensively and the down hill speed creep in the D1 can be a nuisance. The old trick of course is to drive down on the brakes or do cadence braking. As for the cost, its a LR, they've kept me broke for 30 odd years.

garrycol, I hadn't thought of using the 14cux, TBH I thought it might be considered "old". But this would only drive the injection side and not the ignition. I think NZ$1642.47 might be money well spent to if it achieves what I want. Maybe I might get a deal as I could do with two kits, the others for a 6 cylinder project.

cheers

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And you will need to find in excess of another $1700NZ for the megasquirt

No you don't, you only need to find a big pile of money if you want the really nice full kit that Nige sells. If you want to solder it up yourself & whittle your own trigger wheel & brackets & plumbing etc. etc. you only need ~$200 USD (~$360 NZD if the internet is correct) for an ECU kit plus postage. If you can live with the less idiot-proof V2.2 board the kit is only $169 USD.

Depends how you value your time really.

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elbekko, the Compushift allows sports/manual mode amongst other things so will allow the torque converter to lock up in low range as mr drumstick mentioned above. I'd like to think that I'm upgrading? My disco goes off road extensively and the down hill speed creep in the D1 can be a nuisance. The old trick of course is to drive down on the brakes or do cadence braking. As for the cost, its a LR, they've kept me broke for 30 odd years.

Fair enough, although my P38 (electronically controlled ZF4HP24) is still too fast for my liking on downhills, and requires driving down on the brakes for most steep stuff.

It would definitely be an upgrade, just not sure if it's worth it, as Compushift is very expensive.

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No you don't, you only need to find a big pile of money if you want the really nice full kit that Nige sells. If you want to solder it up yourself & whittle your own trigger wheel & brackets & plumbing etc. etc. you only need ~$200 USD (~$360 NZD if the internet is correct) for an ECU kit plus postage. If you can live with the less idiot-proof V2.2 board the kit is only $169 USD.

Depends how you value your time really.

True but by the time you also source all the other bits and pieces to actually make it all work you might as well get the full kit (making the ECU yourself does not save much). If you buy the ECU kit that you linked to it will still not run the engine by itself. Like here in Aust, someone in NZ is unlikely to find the additional hardware needed lying around in the local wreckers yard and the bits will have to be imported with associated big shipping costs - probably easier to get the lot in one go - but yes, if you have the time and resources you could do it cheaper.

Re the 4cux running the thor injectors etc and ignition - then megajolt to handle the ignition may be an option or indeed putting the 3.9 timing cover, dizzy and cam may be another.

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garry - You're assuming you have to go EDIS, which was a mostly American item. MS can run coil packs or coil-on-plug, etc. from almost anything locally available. You can also use any locally available sensors etc. with a little bit of homework. That's kinda the point. Beyond some lovely laser-cut brackets and bits, Nige's kit does not contain anything that can't be found in some form from any local supplier. The main point of it is it contains everything you need, all present & correct & decent quality.

MS by default works with some of the most globally-popular GM sensors, very deliberately chosen as being readily available as widely as possible.

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In line with Fridge's thinking:

MS can use the Bosch/Thor flywheel for the VR sensor (60-2), and can drive the Bosch coil packs if you build it with Direct Coil Drive. That's that bit solved.

Temperature sensor you should be able to reuse and load into firmware, if you know how (well described, plenty of values in the RAVE).

MS1 can't use the Bosch idle air valve I think, as it's 3 wire, but you should be able to find some from an old Volvo IIRC?

So there's an IAT sensor left, you could probably reuse the Bosch one, but it's in the MAF assembly, which you'll likely want to remove.

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