Steering Wobble - Defender 110

[Mo Murphy]

If you give it to someone else to repair you'll never learn how to do it yourself.

1. Buy a new steering damper and fit it, that'll be cheaper than getting someone to change bushes, that's 1 nut and bolt and 1 nut.

2. Buy some genuine panhard rod bushes, remove the panhard rod, that's 2 nut and bolts. Take them to your local garage, ask them to press out the old and press in the new. Go home and Refit.

Simples.

I'm happy to answer and any questions along the way.

Mo

[Scotts90]

As above, the defender is one of the best vehicles to learn DIY maintenance skills. The tech archive on this forum has excellent how to guides...if you're stuck just ask.

[Bowie69]

Good detective work there, Joel

Increase in shimmy is probably down to increase in weight of wheels over your old ones...

As above though, get the panhard bush changed first, the damper shouldn't really be used to mask a problem.... You can drive with them disconnected and suffer no shimmy on a good condition front end.

Oh and do it yourself! If you were closer I'd give you a hand

[J.A.G_100]

Good detective work there, Joel

Increase in shimmy is probably down to increase in weight of wheels over your old ones...

As above though, get the panhard bush changed first, the damper shouldn't really be used to mask a problem.... You can drive with them disconnected and suffer no shimmy on a good condition front end.

Oh and do it yourself! If you were closer I'd give you a hand

As above, the defender is one of the best vehicles to learn DIY maintenance skills. The tech archive on this forum has excellent how to guides...if you're stuck just ask.

If you give it to someone else to repair you'll never learn how to do it yourself.

1. Buy a new steering damper and fit it, that'll be cheaper than getting someone to change bushes, that's 1 nut and bolt and 1 nut.

2. Buy some genuine panhard rod bushes, remove the panhard rod, that's 2 nut and bolts. Take them to your local garage, ask them to press out the old and press in the new. Go home and Refit.

Simples.

I'm happy to answer and any questions along the way.

Mo

Nothing but more great advice and feedback!

Thanks again Bowie69!

So the LR specialist advised it was the Damper itself as he had it off and noticed its range of movement was shot, and the bush had too much play at the one end as I noted on the videos.

You'll all be glad to know Im going to be changing the front steering damper today as I've found a Britpart for dirt cheap, should last me a while although Id prefer to get LR parts but money is tight this month what with new tyres and paying for holiday!

Ill let you know how I get on, if this doesn't solve it I will start on the Panhard Rod next as the Swivel joint looked in good nick which mechanic confirmed also!

Cheers all yet again....ruddy dig this community! :i-m_so_happy: :i-m_so_happy:

[deep]

Great if you get it sorted but, really, if you buy an older Land Rover it pays to go over all the steering and suspension joints, links and bushes (and brake pads/shoes) as a matter of course, so you don't get nasty surprises later. You could do worse than just work your way through those parts of a Haynes manual or similar, a bit each weekend over a few weeks if you feel incompetent. Peace of mind is worth plenty! I realise you paid a shop for that but knowing what's what yourself is just better.

[Puffernutter]

I know that I've mentioned it before, but in my experience (1990 - 110 Defender) the root cause was a swivel joint that didn't have the correct pre-load and was therefore too free to move. You can change what you like with all the other parts and new bushes, steering damper etc., will "hide" it for a while, but it will always come back.

Testing the swivel is not too difficult (although again in my experience you normally mess up the boot of the tie rod end in the process when you release them :-) and all you need is a spring balance to check it.

Cheers

Peter

[reb78]

I would do that panhard rod bush over the steering damper to be honest. (although both need doing and are pennies to do in the grand scheme of things)

[Bowie69]

Yep I'd do both panhard and damper bush right away.

I'd be surprised if swivel was worn, this is a very low mileage truck, granted not impossible of course

[J.A.G_100]

Yep I'd do both panhard and damper bush right away.

I'd be surprised if swivel was worn, this is a very low mileage truck, granted not impossible of course

I would do that panhard rod bush over the steering damper to be honest. (although both need doing and are pennies to do in the grand scheme of things)

Thanks Bowie and eb78, I have now changed both the damper and bushes and the panhard rod bushes both ends......

I know that I've mentioned it before, but in my experience (1990 - 110 Defender) the root cause was a swivel joint that didn't have the correct pre-load and was therefore too free to move. You can change what you like with all the other parts and new bushes, steering damper etc., will "hide" it for a while, but it will always come back.

Testing the swivel is not too difficult (although again in my experience you normally mess up the boot of the tie rod end in the process when you release them :-) and all you need is a spring balance to check it.

Cheers

Peter

Thanks Peter,

I think this is my next step but Ive been told and expect it is beyond my skill set at the moment, so I will take it to my local landy specialist and ask them to check the pre load and the swivel joint itself.

As above, I've now changed the steering damper and pan hard rod bushes and mainly BALANCED ALL THE WHEELS! (I know, I know I should have checked this straight away, but to be honest I just assumed they were balanced!) Balancing the wheels really helped obviously but now the wobble is less frequent and almost completely gone but sometimes I do experience the odd wobble now and then, still around the 50mph mark when I let off the throttle.

Ill let you know if the mechanic notices anything amiss with the swivel and preload, maybe the slightly larger tyres (gone from 7.50's to 235's) needs more preload or something, I'm out of my depth a little in this department so just wanting to get it sorted now before the issue worsens maybe.

Any more input you guys can give is much appreciated!

Cheers

Joel

[western]

maybe the slightly larger tyres (gone from 7.50's to 235's) needs more preload or something, I'm out of my depth a little in this department so just wanting to get it sorted now before the issue worsens maybe.

Tyre size makes no difference to Swivel preload as that's set with the wheel/tyre off the vehicle.

I run 255/85 tyres on heavy XD/Wolf rims without any balance or vibration problems, I've had 7.50 & 235's on my 110 over the years with no problem, so doubt yours is down to tyres being to big

[Lewis]

I fitted hundreds of tyres for myself and others, only once had a problem with balance, that was cured with two bags of balancing beads.

I think people weigh wheel balancing too highly

[deep]

Well, there are reasons to balance your wheels properly but the dreaded steering wobble occurs at a much lower frequency than the vibration of an out-of-balance wheel, so that won't be the problem here. There's no mystery though. Start at the wheel bearings and work on through the system. Nothing in particular may seem bad but there is a resonance set up at around 50 m.p.h. which takes very little to trigger.

[GW8IZR]

Nothing in particular may seem bad but there is a resonance set up at around 50 m.p.h. which takes very little to trigger.

I know that the stock solution is to tighten everything up and replace every worn part and eventually the problem goes away, more as a war of attrition than a scientific investigation :-)

It can only be rotation of wheels or rotation of prop though and even slight changes in wheel diameter would surely move this resonance to a different road speed?

I still have a little wobble on my 90 after fitting a D1 front axle - all new bushes bearings and swivels correctly set up. Interestingly the D1 has an anti vibration damper on the diff and removing that made the wobble better - I liked the recent video clip of the movement and I'm going to stick my camera under the 90 at some point as I reckon the diff nose is also moving up and down.

This was all the more frustrating as there was never a flicker of wobble on the very old 90 axle and there was so much slop in the swivel pins you could rock top and bottom 1/8" - no correct pre load there!

[J.A.G_100]

I know that the stock solution is to tighten everything up and replace every worn part and eventually the problem goes away, more as a war of attrition than a scientific investigation :-)

It can only be rotation of wheels or rotation of prop though and even slight changes in wheel diameter would surely move this resonance to a different road speed?

I still have a little wobble on my 90 after fitting a D1 front axle - all new bushes bearings and swivels correctly set up. Interestingly the D1 has an anti vibration damper on the diff and removing that made the wobble better - I liked the recent video clip of the movement and I'm going to stick my camera under the 90 at some point as I reckon the diff nose is also moving up and down.

This was all the more frustrating as there was never a flicker of wobble on the very old 90 axle and there was so much slop in the swivel pins you could rock top and bottom 1/8" - no correct pre load there!

Well, there are reasons to balance your wheels properly but the dreaded steering wobble occurs at a much lower frequency than the vibration of an out-of-balance wheel, so that won't be the problem here. There's no mystery though. Start at the wheel bearings and work on through the system. Nothing in particular may seem bad but there is a resonance set up at around 50 m.p.h. which takes very little to trigger.

Guys again I appreciate it all, Ive spent a good day looking at everything but Ive got a fear that I'm missing some tiny tell tale sign due lack of experience on my behalf, hence why I have taken the decision to take it to a specialist to cast his eye and point me in the right direction.

[Snagger]

The panhard and damper bushes are absolutely wrecked. Replace all four. The second video suggests the drop arm is on nice and tightly and there doesn't appear to be any ball joint play. Check the steering damper while it's off for correct function, but hopefully it's all cheap stuff.

Swivel bearing preload is more than checking for play - there should be a very specific amount of resistance in the bearings, tested with the wheel, steering rods and swivel seal removed. It's not especially complex, but it is time consuming and may be a bit much for a novice, so just start with the four bushes.

[GW8IZR]

Swivel bearing preload is more than checking for play - there should be a very specific amount of resistance in the bearings, tested with the wheel, steering rods and swivel seal removed.

I always set them up with a strain gauge as per the manual, the reason I mentioned this last case of mine ( the first ever on one of my vehicles ) is the old axle had no pre load whatsoever, the swivel flopped back and forth with no resistance and yet the steering was perfect - the "new" axle on the D1 donor was 178k miles old and almost certainly on original bushes looking at the state of them yet the steering was perfect. then after I swapped every component and set it up exactly as it should be, lo and behold a bit of wobble at 50 ish MPH - same wheels and tyres in the same corners on all three vehicle setups.

So yes I'm going to solve it eventually but just setting everything up won't always be the cure. It's a good starting point but may not be the end game - luckily if the op swaps those worn bushes it should transform his truck.

[Happyoldgit]

Guys again I appreciate it all, Ive spent a good day looking at everything but Ive got a fear that I'm missing some tiny tell tale sign due lack of experience on my behalf, hence why I have taken the decision to take it to a specialist to cast his eye and point me in the right direction.

The jobs described aren't that onerous but if you have little spannering experience then jobs like getting old panhard rod bushes out and new ones in can be time consuming ...but you won't learn much by getting someone else to do it To state the obvious there are 'specialists' who are honest and know what they are about and there are 'specialists' who will pick up that you have limited knowledge and quite happily carry out uneccessary work and charge you accordingly. My advice is to seek out someone close to you who actually knows Land Rovers.

[J.A.G_100]

So quick update guys....

I took removed the track rod ends off the wheels and could literally blow on the tyre (over exaggeration) and it would turn, so the preload needed looking at, which my mechanic sorted, tell me he had to remove 2 shims off each side.

That didn't fully sort the wobble but helped a great deal. We looked at the rest of the steering and he noticed the pan hard rod still had some play on the bushes, even though Id swapped them for new. The mechanic told me these can warp if bushes have been swapped not using a press or if the bushes have been swapped a couple of times (to be honest the chew I had getting the old out and new bushes in I wasn't surprised if the rod was a little out of shape). He swapped the pan hard rod for another he had off a vehicle he knew drove well and this then helped the now slight wobble even more.

So It looks like I need a new pan hard rod, at £40 with bushes isn't too bad....

So the pre load and the pan hard rod were the culprits BUT, even with the healthy pan hard rod fitted there was still a minor wobble.......Which was just my luck......So we looked at the rims....and we could see when spun the two at the front had a buckle, one more than the other but both noticeable. We thought about changing them round so the back wheels were on the front but, after looking at the back wheels we soon noticed the front wheel were the best of the lot.

We rebalanced the wheels and had to add a whopping 100grams of lead 1 of the front wheels. This has helped yet again so I think Im 96% fixed....

The truck now drives at any speed (before anything over 40mph caused the horrendous undriveable wobble) and Ive only noticed a tiny wobble after hitting a bump in the road.

Next on the list is a new set of rims, will get the same for now but in black (Attached Pic) at around £120 for the set and a new pan hard rod with bushes for about £40 all from Bearmach.

The mechanic worked through the truck with me and has passed on a great deal of knowledge which I am grateful for, he has been building and working on Landrovers for 30+ years, from bowlers to series landys so he really knows his stuff and it showed during this last day.

Quick question guys as you have been so helpful already, but how hard is it to buckle a rim? Specifically the ones I've pictured? I don't do any crazy off roading, just green laning and possible some light pay and play days in the future?

Cheers all

[Bowie69]

Really very surprised they are buckled! Hoe many mm out do you think? No idea how it happened, as you see from the tyres they were only used pretty lightly off road, and never exhibited the problem when I drove it.

I'd say pretty hard to buckle a rim, they are immensely strong, and given that I would check any new rims before fitting....

[J.A.G_100]

Really very surprised they are buckled! Hoe many mm out do you think? No idea how it happened, as you see from the tyres they were only used pretty lightly off road, and never exhibited the problem when I drove it.

I'd say pretty hard to buckle a rim, they are immensely strong, and given that I would check any new rims before fitting....

Hi Bowie69,

I am surprised also, but in fairness your right the tyres are in great nick and I didn't expect to get them on rims either so Im not too fussed, plus your a nice chap so I doubt you knew like you said!

No drama as I want some black rims anyway! plus the buckle wasn't the sole problem only added to the preload and pan hard rod!

Cheers

[Bowie69]

How much out were they?

Sounds likes you have found a good mechanic, they are tricky to come by...

[J.A.G_100]

How much out were they?

Sounds likes you have found a good mechanic, they are tricky to come by...

Rem can't remember the figures for how out they were, what with all the knowledge he was throwing my way.....Yeah I think I have found a good Mechanic, Although like I said I will try to do most things myself but Im also aware some jobs will only be made worse if I try them alone so Its nice to have him to fall back on and teach me also!

[J.A.G_100]

Update,

After all the above........turned out it was the joint on the steering shaft! Not the wheels Bowie69 (although I wanted to change to black anyway)

Changed the part pictured and all was well! Annoyingly this had been checked but the play was so slight I'm not sure anyone would have spotted it!

 

[Bowie69]

Good end to the story, did wonder where you had gone  to be honest, hoped you hadn't binned it at 50mph

Glad to see you back!

It can be the simple things.... can't it

[J.A.G_100]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

Good end to the story, did wonder where you had gone  to be honest, hoped you hadn't binned it at 50mph

Glad to see you back!

It can be the simple things.... can't it

Simple things: So often is, So often overlooked!

 

You'll never be rid of me now Bowie69, My 110 is already an heirloom and will remain with me until Im dead! Which unfortunately means I'll be on this forum for the foreseeable!