Nigelw Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Just home from meeting up with some fellow enthusiasts whome I met at Budel. Three new friends all running series Land Rovers, one thing in common, all run a different engine than LR made them with, two of the three petrol and one diesel. Jos has a series 3 ligh. Iight weight with a rover 2ltr turbo petrol engine. Eric with a swb series 3 pick up with a Ford Essex V6 2.9 injection. Marlon with a series 2a lwb running a 200Di (less the turbo). I really liked the petrol powered trucks but the diesel engined lwb was just too loud for me!!! We talked a lot about the trend in the UK to stick a 200Tdi and now more commonly a 300Tdi motor in a series, and I pointed out the tax issue here as a persuasion to petrol but even Marlon agreed, if it hadn't been for the fact that his barge was 40+ and the conversion already done, he'd happily run a petrol in his series. Why? All said the noise of a clattery diesel was too much to bare in a series cab, all of them claimed figures of around the 10~10.5ltrs/100kms so diesel might not offer the saving grace of best consumption! I just thought I'd share as a former petrol powered series owner, I still don't see the fascination of fitting a 200 or 300Tdi in a series when there are so many smashing petrol lumps out there that can out do a diesel in everything except higher torque I suppose. I know there will be a few who will for sure knock petrol engines especially modetn electronically controlled ones in favor of diesels but I really don't see the fascination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 The big plus of a TDi in a series is its pretty much a nut and bolt job.. You could buy a disco and use what you need, sell the rest in bits and get most of your money back. Also, as long as you don't drive like a div you won't break any transmission bits and Ejparrott for instance gets 40 plus to the gallon when is 200 powered 88 is in good health..... Bit of a no brainer to me. I dont think the TDi is as noisy as it is often made out to be, particularly when you think the oldest 200s are 25 years old now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Fuel economy surely? 30mpg+ from a 200Tdi has rather a nice ring to it compared to what a standard 2.25 petrol will get you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I wonder how many tdi conversions secretly yearn for a quieter petrol. All my previous series motors have been petrol, normally v8s I ran a v8 in my 90 and on its last rebuild decided the lure of a 30mpg 300tdi was too much to resist. I will run it till it fails which may be a long time but next time I *think* it will be a petrol again.... mebee on gas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 There's nothing really wrong with a properly set up 2 1/4 petrol in good health. The v8 craze unfairly prompted it's demise alas. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Fuel economy surely? 30mpg+ from a 200Tdi has rather a nice ring to it compared to what a standard 2.25 petrol will get you. True, I mostly got 17mpg from mine. But then a decent fuel injected modern petrol engine will get far in excess of 17, and push 25 easily I would have thought. Be interested to know what the turbo nutter lightweight gets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 There's nothing really wrong with a properly set up 2 1/4 petrol in good health. The v8 craze unfairly prompted it's demise alas. Mo Totally agree, I loved the engine, especially once set up right with an SU carb, and binned the bent piece of rubbish that was on there. So smooth and torquey.... loved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 True, I mostly got 17mpg from mine. But then a decent fuel injected modern petrol engine will get far in excess of 17, and push 25 easily I would have thought. Be interested to know what the turbo nutter lightweight gets? Jos claims 10.5l/100kms more on a run and much more when its snow and ice, guessing it has something to do with being scared of the throttle in a rear wheel drive series, must be interesting when the turbo kicks the back end out for you I regularly returned 26mpg in my 2.6 6 cyl pick up, my mate Paul in Germany had a 2a 2 1/4 swb thhat was 25mpg+ all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 That surprises me with the 6 pot, I thought they had a reputation for liking a drink? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Fuel economy surely? 30mpg+ from a 200Tdi has rather a nice ring to it compared to what a standard 2.25 petrol will get you. This. Plus the fact Tdi's are cheap and easy to get and cheap and easy to install. The 200 I've bought for mine cost £200-300 all in. I don't know of any petrol engines you could install as easily, for similar money that'll offer the same blend of performance and economy. Also for trialing a diesel is nice with its power deliver and doesn't mind water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 True, I mostly got 17mpg from mine. But then a decent fuel injected modern petrol engine will get far in excess of 17, and push 25 easily I would have thought. Be interested to know what the turbo nutter lightweight gets? MPi Disco's and Defenders will be 23-28mpg sort of range. A turbo in a Lightweight will be no better. Maybe worse. Just think what sort of mpg a Rover 620ti would get and then take some off for the extra weight, worse aero and additional drag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Jos claims 10.5l/100kms more on a run and much more when its snow and ice, guessing it has something to do with being scared of the throttle in a rear wheel drive series, must be interesting when the turbo kicks the back end out for you I regularly returned 26mpg in my 2.6 6 cyl pick up, my mate Paul in Germany had a 2a 2 1/4 swb thhat was 25mpg+ all day long. having been around Land Rovers all my life. I'm sorry but I do not believe 25mpg claims from a 2.25 petrol. Not even if you fiddle the figures. And the only way it's do it all day long is if it was being towed!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 having been around Land Rovers all my life. I'm sorry but I do not believe 25mpg claims from a 2.25 petrol. Not even if you fiddle the figures. And the only way it's do it all day long is if it was being towed!! I can second that and as for a 2.6 getting 26 it must be a 5ltr gallon to get near it , they were as thirsty as a V8 and I have run several of both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 having been around Land Rovers all my life. I'm sorry but I do not believe 25mpg claims from a 2.25 petrol. Not even if you fiddle the figures. And the only way it's do it all day long is if it was being towed!! I would bet a lot of tdi conversions only just scrape that.. my 90 drops to 26/27 sometimes and thats driven fairly sensibly these days. the 2286 is a really nice engine but I dont think that it is particularly fuel efficient no matter what carb is fitted. (edit) we had a six cylinder 109 at work which was ours from new.. 11mpg was the best we ever saw from it and our V8 110 was better even towing an ATV and trailer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheffield Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Of course what we want is a converstion to run the TDI on petrol. That would slove all the problems. Land Rover did at first consider a petrol version, but it went no further than initial planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 my approach is that its a Landrover and it uses ****loads of fuel to drag it round. I try to squeeze a few more miles out of each litre by keeping it in a reasonable state of tune, use sensible tyres and drive reasonably carefully but if it all becomes too much - a Donkey and cart is an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Chicken drumstick I disagree the TDi is an awful engine to run trialling. It's slow to pickup from Tickover, it won't drop below 800rpm and if it does try to it just stalls, you run out of revs it's just not nice. It makes the landy feel heavy slow and lethargic. I'm with Mo, a sorted 2.25 or 2.5 petrol is by far a more drivable engine. Can drop down to 400 rpm will keep going and pick up more sprightly. Problem is and it's very noticeable of late selling series parts at Newbury. series people generally I'm gonna upset people here! Don't spend the money on maintainance or frankly anything. Arguing over 50p for a door handle. And such like! There are a few that do obviously but generally the majority of the engines and indeed ign system and everything else just isn't maintained let alone work right. The carbs are never setup right and brakes never work. You see the threads. It's not a problem with the landy it's a problem with the owners. Like a rover v8 with "(it's got a Kent cam)" ok what one? Dunno, runs like a bag of poo up to 2000rpm then takes off. Seen a few of those trialled and just funny to watch a 2lt petrol Potter up a hill when this stinking v8 won't pull anything below 2k RPM. But the reason for a 200tdi conversion being so popular goes back to my previous possiblebupsetting comment. It's because it's mega cheap and very easy low low maintainance they just run and run even without proper care the odd oil change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 My old mans 109 with overdrive maintained thoroughly as it was used as a working vehicle going to Wales monthly he would squeeze 22mpg never could get 24 it had the spare wheel on the bonnet and loaded with tools and family. Every unit had molyslip in and the engine had +40 thou pistons and head skim in mm not thou. The link for the carb that would Squirt fuel in was carried in his wallet for years only fitted for trials and he drove very very different to the way people Drive today. Back then People drive carefully to save fuel. My old man used to trial with the AWDC and was a test driver fitter for Renault trucks so could drive and keep the mpg down. Its the only series landy without an engine change that would cruise at 70mph. I Remember my brother a landy tech driving us home from Wales first he threw us into the sand escape run to show how it worked wasn't great a fiddlers elbow. We left my old Man in Wales and n the way back was the first time and last time I saw the speedo Needle bouncing the wrong side of the start pin. There is no excuse a landy can travel at today's speeds and still be a really nice strong engine. Yea it costs a bit in fuel but it's quiet and nice not a clatterly old thing. The way things are going nowadays petrol is or will be a viable alternative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I would bet a lot of tdi conversions only just scrape that.. my 90 drops to 26/27 sometimes and thats driven fairly sensibly these days. the 2286 is a really nice engine but I dont think that it is particularly fuel efficient no matter what carb is fitted. (edit) we had a six cylinder 109 at work which was ours from new.. 11mpg was the best we ever saw from it and our V8 110 was better even towing an ATV and trailer I've luckily had a lot of experience of Land Rover's over the years. We've owned an run quite a number, as have close family and friends. First hand experience probably tally's over 50 Land Rover's, maybe more. Tdi's will generally for mixed use offer a Mode average of 25-28mpg. A Discovery, due to better aero can see higher cruising mpg as a rule. And will frequently top 30mpg, but you are unlikely to see this pottering about or town use. Gently driven 33mpg is about the best I've ever witnessed from any Tdi. Which is why I take claims higher than this with a pinch of salt. A 2.25 petrol is far less fuel efficient than a Tdi. And in any I've known/seen/used , breaking 20mpg average will require you to drive it very economy focused and running at 55mph will be out of the question. 15-18mpg is far more realistic average for normal driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I love my 200 and I'd never put a petrol in. Every time we go on holiday I keep an accurate log of mileage using the satnav - not the wonky Series speedo - and I keep a very close tab on the fuel. Even this year with a decidedly poorly engine I still returned mid 30's mpg. Last couple of years I've been doing it I've recorded just nudging the 40 mpg mark. I'm not talking flat roads of Norfolk either, we go over to Wales climbing many hills on the way, loaded with holiday gear. She is as far as I know in standard tune, but she has no intercooler. With a Wright Offroad soundproof kit I really don't find the TDi that noisy at all. When she gets the much-talked-about long-awaited chassis swap she'll be getting a whole load of extra soundproofing on the bulkhead, and I expect the noise to drop even further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I have a 200tdi in my 90 and when the chassis swap happens give me a year or so I too will be putting a lot of focus on sound proofing. It's now demoted to tow motor and needs good MPG to tow the CCV motor around the country. Last years nationals was alright it did ok tyres and offset disco rims made the biggest difference but the engine is just slow to pick up from idle and Max or any torque is so far up the Rev range you gotta be spinning it up to get anywhere! My old Na was far better to pickup from idle. Guessing the lack of compression because of the turbo low end the tdi isn't ever going to be nice. But as an everyday tow motor or expedition or travelling abroad (dodgy diesel fuel) it's a great engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 <dons tin hat> IMHO a lot of it is because people don't really think it through - cost & compromise Vs potentially rather small MPG saving on a truck you don't do lost of miles in makes no sense to me. It's the same as LPG conversions, you save money on fuel but pay out a load to do the conversion and then have a compromise (EG less boot space, shorter range) on top. You have to work out if the saving over the miles/years is really worth it, and IMHO most people are very bad at really working that out. The 4 & 6cyl petrols aren't very economical, but if tuned up right they're not so far off the 2/300TDi to be worth the hassle to save a few gallons of petrol here & there unless you're doing mega mileage. Also (and I will get shouted at for this) some of the TDi fanboys shout REALLY loudly and give the impression no other engine is worth considering. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 For the disbelievers in 26mpg, here are a few things Brian and I did when it first came home, head off and busy as far as we could get inside the inlet with the die grinder to remove casting left overs, valves out and the ports opened up a little more then 1/2 filled it with ball bearings and very slow spin on the lathe to let the ball bearings smoothe away the rest of the imperfections, brand new old stock solex carb and vaporiser plate, exhaust valve seats pulled and new hardened seats fitted along with a little fettle of the exhaust ports. Brian was an oldschool farmer with more engineering experience forgotten than I will ever learn, I still miss that grumpy old man It was the engine fettle and running a road biased tyre except for laning or planned P&P days that gave good mpg, tyres and their pressures have such impact on fuel economy! Paul rebuilt the 2 1/4 to better than new standard, I remember sitting in his workshop while he disassembled the original carb, quick look over it in bits and he rolled up the cloth and put it in a card board box to be sent back to the uk for rebuilding, he said it is so worn up he's surprised it ran at all. I am not at all surprised by negative comments towards elderly 2 1/4 petrols, a great many were worn up long before they got to you! The comment about series owners being tight rings quite true, and the lack of servicing holds very true!!! I change oils annually or sooner if miles get racked up, but a petrol engine oil should not be black and stink! I saw a lot like this when looiing for my own series, and always got the "it's a Land Rover, they run forever". I think Fridge nailed it quite good too, cost Vs cost and especially on longevity of ownership! I also think there is an element of technophobia in there too as a more modern engine requires more than the 6 wires of a Tdi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Hmm..not a TDI fanboy here but there are other factors, no petrol engine is as electrically quiet as my TDI and thats an important factor to me, probably worth more than the few mpg gains . Others look at alternate fuels, you cant just dismiss others decision process based on on your own needs. Todays cost saving of 17mpg on petrol v 28mpg on diesel, that could easily be wiped out if the green lobby get their way with their current thinking. Maybe next time round I'll be driven back to petrol and that might be a good thing.. dunno. As I said before I've run LR's since the early eighties and have been round them since before I could legally drive em so I know enough to spot BS claims. The old 2286 was a nice engine and as someone mentioned before you can get them to tickover so slowly you almost need to check if its still running, no doubts a good engine. Also by almost blueprinting a 2286 and spending half your life setting tappets and timing then driving very carefully you can just about scrape a bit less fuel efficiency than a bog standard TDI.. its probably not a big sell to most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Completely agree Nigel Knowing more about free efficiency in sure we could push a 2.25 or even better a 2.5 petrol up to a reasonable MPG. Also did the sums nice the v8 range was only about £1200 a year more expensive in the limited mileage my old man was doing than buying a disco. To get the return would cost 5 years the fuel then the £1k it always costs to get the suspension shocks brakes and any welding plus copious amounts of time to do it for a lesser vehicle. He did change for a disco and is happy but the diesel drivability isn't anything like a well setup petrol v8!or 2.25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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