Chicken Drumstick Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 A bobtailed RR/Discovery would indeed need IVA,Curious and somewhat playing devils advocate here. Your PAS bracket is clearly a modification to the chassis... As per both sets of rules, the chassis must remain unmodified. So as it is written, you should have taken your 109 for an IVA. And more importantly it clearly says: A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used: the original unmodified chassis https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles It would appear your 109 should not retain it's registration... keeping it Really? Seems pretty clear to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It seems absolutely mad that a RR with the last 6 inches of the chassis cut off to form a bobtail but 100% original for all the other points related items would lose its reg and need a full IVA . Yet it would be fine under the points system to fit axles from a hummer and the engine from a lorry... common sense does not appear to prevail! I agree, because there is no reason to believe the vehicle isn't completely original, with just a little bit cut off. I have never heard of a bobtail being sent for IVA or the owner being in hot water, presumably because the DVLA can see the issue for what it is an use some discretion in the cases they are aware of. Likewise the hybrids are not going to face many problems unless other mechanical mods are made. The rules are clear, what is less so is the latitude given for infringing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Curious and somewhat playing devils advocate here. Your PAS bracket is clearly a modification to the chassis... As per both sets of rules, the chassis must remain unmodified. So as it is written, you should have taken your 109 for an IVA. And more importantly it clearly says: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles It would appear your 109 should not retain it's registration... keeping it Arguably true, but if you speak to the DVLA, they will tell you that the rules apply to the dimensions and structure of the chassis, not bracketry, or at least that is what they told me ten years ago. That suggests that moving a cross member to accommodate Defender steering or a longer transmission may be acceptable too. What they don't accept is a change in suspension mountings, wheel base or overall dimensions, though as previously mentioned, they don't seem concerned by bobtails. I didn't ask about this bracket, but I did ask about engine mounts before I ordered the new chassis, and that was the guidance they gave me. I think their view is that if you're not chopping lumps off the chassis, then it is not being significantly altered. The same would apply to roll cage mounts or mountings for extra suspension dampers. Even drilling holes to fit a Defender long range auxilliary fuel tank or water tank could be viewed in that way but is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Well if it's clear cut, most old and modified cars are probably illegal then. Look at what it actually says: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van) Read the next line.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Arguably true, but if you speak to the DVLA, they will tell you that the rules apply to the dimensions and structure of the chassis, not bracketry, or at least that is what they told me ten years ago. That suggests that moving a cross member to accommodate Defender steering or a longer transmission may be acceptable too. What they don't accept is a change in suspension mountings, wheel base or overall dimensions, though as previously mentioned, they don't seem concerned by bobtails. I didn't ask about this bracket, but I did ask about engine mounts before I ordered the new chassis, and that was the guidance they gave me. I think their view is that if you're not chopping lumps off the chassis, then it is not being significantly altered. The same would apply to roll cage mounts or mountings for extra suspension dampers. Even drilling holes to fit a Defender long range auxilliary fuel tank or water tank could be viewed in that way but is not. That's all good info, but goes to show how unclear it all is. As all of this completely contradicts what they publish on the Gov site. And I know that you can ask the DVLA the same question twice and get two completely different answers depending on who it is, their mood or the current position of the moon. As for them seeing it as "bracketry", an upper spring mount is just that. There is no rational, logical or engineering reason to look at them as something different. So it sounds irrational on what they will or won't allow anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Read the next line....??? I don't get your point. My reference was to it being "unmodified". Be it a new chassis or the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I think it is pretty clear, however the reason we have so many potentially illegal vehicles on the road is because of lack of will and resources to police it properly. The rules however, are clear. Not that I really want it policed more, of course, waste of everyone's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The rules however, are clear. Not that I really want it policed more, of course, waste of everyone's time. The rules are clear, the intent is clear, when I asked DVLA (as was) for their guidance it was clear. No amount of well meaning but ill advised posts on an enthusiasts forum or retailers websites changes that. The only thing seeking official clarification will do is reduce wriggle room for those pushing towards and beyond the edge. Myself, I think the system is quite ridiculous and does nothing to stop the illegal tax free defenders and Porsche Beetles. It only serves to cause the odd sleepless night for the real , generally honest enthusiast. Of course in the event of being caught short of points anyone could challenge the conclusion of a VOSA inspection or a DVSA ruling in court, thats really the only way we will know who is right. My pockets are not deep enough for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I agree, Paul. I think there is a lot to be said for common sense in all this. Apply that and the authorities won't be concerned, but blatently commit fraud by putting an old VIN on a newer vehicle (SII on Defender, for a common example, or early Def VIN on a late Def vehicle to avoid the high TDCI taxes or US import restrictions), or using an old VIN on a newbuild oldspec vehicle (ie a SII or SIII made of correct spec parts but a vehicle that hadn't previously existed) and you could rightly come a cropper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 My experience, and others, are that they ARE concerned with bobtails. What they don't accept is a change in suspension mountings, wheel base or overall dimensions, though as previously mentioned, they don't seem concerned by bobtails. SimonR got a reply from them at one point, and unless it was for roll cage mounts you have modified it. So............. we are back to square one I guess, perhaps the points system is just there to make it easy to spot blatant offenders and nail them to the tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Lot of discussion about what is considered radically altered etc , and complaints about not clear enough , so arguable. Bottom line is what the DVSA inspector decides ,and from experience you are very unlikely to get them to change it , and unless you have very deep pockets to mount a legal challenge , which due to the vagueness you will most likely lose, how lucky do you feel when doing the build with all the effort and expense as well that you are going to end up not getting a decision you like ? PS they have got some inspectors that are landrover savvy even own one ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Yep, if it is chancing a trip to the crusher, I would want to do it right, either avoid breaching the points system, or apply for the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy50 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Apologies if I have missed it in this thread (I haven't read the links ),if you take the iva test do you then get a fresh set of points ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Apologies if I have missed it in this thread (I haven't read the links ),if you take the iva test do you then get a fresh set of points ? You must do, because it is being assessed as a new vehicle. But you won't get a VIN or reg based on the donor vehicle's original production date. That means that some people would lose "historic vehicle" status with tax implications that brings, and some would need to meet tougher emissions and safety standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Yep, if it is chancing a trip to the crusher, I would want to do it right, either avoid breaching the points system, or apply for the test.But is it as easy as that? Last time I checked you had to shell out money to see exactly what you need to do for an IVA. But that's only a minor thing, the bigger problem as I see it is. If it is an old vehicle, say you've made a hybrid Series, 80 or 86" using the original body/interior and maybe some running gear, but used a cut down coil chassis. You are unlikely to have used that many "new" parts and maybe not have receipts for everything. Which would seem to make it impossible or hugely difficult to know what to actually do. It certainly doesn't fit the kit or the rebuilt or even radically altered categories. I assume that it would either be a Q plate or not allowed at all. Which is rather crazy considering. But then I still can't see how and where the line is drawn on what constitutes a chassis. Would cutting a Series 88 in half and fitting a new rear half chassis not count as rather similar? How about making up chassis repair sections yourself? Is it ok to manufacture a pair of chassis legs and weld them into an existing chassis? If so, can you use the chassis rail from another vehicle and add it? And if so, is that really any different than fitting the correct out riggers and cross members to some donated chassis rails? On unibody cars, does a subframe count as the chassis, as the suspension is often mounted to such things. And if you can fit roll cage mounts to a ladder chassis, then surely they cannot question if you then fitted suspension mounts to the roll cage... in which case, why should it matter if you fit suspension mounts to the chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Having read the links on page 2 of the thread, the rules have changed a little in the ten years since I did mine, and had changed several times before that. There are no more points; you need to use the unaltered original chassis or a brand new one of the same spec, and just any two of the major assemblies. You are allowed to repair the chassis, just like on a normal annual basis. Replacement chassis sections would be permitted if they're of the same type, including half chassis (even if they quarrelled that, the permission for a completely new chassis of same spec would undermine any argument). I can't see any difference of whether you fabricate the parts or buy them complete from a manufacturer. Cutting down a RR chassis to make a hybrid, even using all of the RR's original assemblies (not just two of them) would disqualify the old VIN, which is nonsensical because it is clearly the same vehicle save for the body, but those are the rules. As for using chassis parts from another vehicle, if you mean new parts for another model, then presumably no because you're changing the spec, and if you mean from same model by used, then almost certainly no because the chassis is the one component with special rules that it mustn't go to another vehicle without VIC and IVA checks. You certainly can't use a whole second hand chassis without inspections and a lot of paperwork, and using sections would, if known about, probably lead to the same application of rules. Practical policing of the latter type of sectional repair, though, is impossible. Interestingly, the new rules DO now permit you to construct a new build vehicle out of period parts over 25 years of age and get a period registration under section 10, subject to inspection and certification by an approved club representative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 VIC doesn't exist anymore. Now you just MOT and apply for the logbook if you don't already have it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 IVA manual is available free online if you google for it. I'd do it, but am Squirting a truck right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy50 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Hmmmm,gonna have to download that before I go any further with the 110 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I suppose something I've not seen mention of apart from me asking earlier in this thread. Is what is the distinction between a Rebuilt and a Radically altered vehicle? Which system should apply? Why? And when? As according to the Gov pages: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles There are no points for a Rebuilt vehicle. Thus logically it must be impossible to lose the points if they don't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy50 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Reading the rules it doesn't look good for a bobtailed Cummins engined 110 hicap with suspension lift ,not if I want to keep my reg anyway . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwakers Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Nor is it looking good to get my caged and traybacked discovery back on the road after ive fitted a 200tdi in place of the mpi and chopped the overhang off of the chassis.... i might just mot iit anyway and forget getting it legal cos i dont really want it on the road but a few of the sites i would like to go to insist on a mot..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize the consequences of modifications. The bad news is there is a lot out there that aren't legal and the owners don't realize/care. The good news is you can get you vehicle legal however you will have to jump through the relevant hoops and you may end up on an age related or Q plate. I've spent years building kit cars some already registered (old/classic kit cars), some via SVA, some via the old VIC and the ibex I'm building now will need an IVA so don't loose hope just do your research. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy50 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I had been contemplating doing away with the bobtail anyway ,the Hi cap hasn't been cut yet ,it was a standard pickup when I cut it and I intentionally made it so the chassis could be reinstated ,new 1/4 chassis would class as a repair so no problem there .It is 300 tdi /R380 powered at the mo but started life as a V8 4 speed so that's what ,4 points lost already ?. Can't decide whether a suspension lift would lose you points or not ,you're not changing the suspension system ,just the rates/lengths of the spring . I know one thing ,the 3/4 built ,bobtailed,bull nosed ,caged and traybacked 200 disco with the engine set back 10 inch in the chassis that is sat in my yard most definitely won't pass ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supaimpy Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 So if a vehicle is on a Q , such as ex MOD , is there a way of confirming why its on Q ? Whats to stop anyone 'ringing' a Q for a hybrid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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