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Life Expectancy for 200TDi FIP & Injectors?


Fatboy
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Morning fellow sufferers..

IMG_4766_zpsgcs9neip.jpg

This is my daily driver, a 1993 200Tdi Defender which I rebuilt a couple of years ago onto a galvanised chassis. Usual upgrades with disc braked back axle, Mazda seats, heated mirrors / windscreen, big intercooler and Longlife exhaust..

A few weeks ago, I turned the keys off but the engine kept running. I had to stall it so concluded that the stop solenoid may be kaput. As I replaced it I gave the seat a good clean out with a magnet and retrieved a few small slivers of metal...

It lasted until yesterday and again wouldn't turn off. I pulled the solenoid and found another little sliver stuck to the plunger so I'm guessing it might be time to get the FIP rebuilt?

So, a couple of questions for folk to provide opinions on:

The engine has done just shy of 90k miles. Its running BP Ultimate diesel, and has done for the past 20k miles in my ownership. Is this a normal duration for a FIP to last or could their be something else I can try?

If the FIP needs a rebuild, am I as well to send the injectors off with it too?

I presume that I need to set the markers on the pulleys and lock the pump as if I am changing the timing belt, but how can I ensure the adjustment on the FPI pulley stays as it is? (It runs sweet, I'd hate to loose that...).

From other posts, I see that Feathers Diesel in Halifax has a good reputation. I've asked them for a quote via their website but not had a response yet. (Its been a few days but fair enough, it is the festive period).

Any other thoughts or recommendations?

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Hey up Donald, if you get one of the cheapo timing pin kits from eblag you get a tool that allows you to lock the pulley in place fully so that should allow you to not loose your timing...

As part of my engine works the other year I put in some refurbished injectors and wasn't disappointed. Maybe something to note, some folk have had issue with getting back re-built FIP pumps and them not been quite right, maybe worth changing one big component separately and stagger the change just in case you do run into problems you'll be able to diagnose any issues quicker...

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Standard practice on a TDi is to remove the pump without disturbing the timing belt, but itf you don't know when it was last done it's worth changing the belt too.

My 200 has done in excess of 250k now. It was at 236k when we took it out of the disco, and the previous owner certainly had done nothing with it. She's not in the best of health, but I don't think it's related to the pump.

At 90k, I'd be rebuilding injectors, personally.

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My injection pump did over 200k, I changed it last year as it developed a leak when I freed off a seized up boost compensator pin - it was otherwise working fine. Now on 242k, injectors have not been done to my knowledge so I am going to treat it to a re-conditioned set for it's 250k birthday next year. I don't particularly run on fancy diesel, just whatever is nearest when it needs filling up, and never the premium stuff.

As above if the belt needs doing then just strip it all down, otherwise it can be done without removing the front etc. if you use the timing kit tools to hold the pulley in place. That's the way I did mine when the re-con pump went on - didn't even have to drain the cooling system (just tied the hose back out of the way of the inspection plate). The timing kit is a damn useful thing to have.

Diesel Bob did my pump, no issues. I'll be getting the injectors sorted when I can find a set of spare ones to get done without taking the car off the road.

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Hey up Donald, if you get one of the cheapo timing pin kits from eblag you get a tool that allows you to lock the pulley in place fully so that should allow you to not loose your timing...

As part of my engine works the other year I put in some refurbished injectors and wasn't disappointed. Maybe something to note, some folk have had issue with getting back re-built FIP pumps and them not been quite right, maybe worth changing one big component separately and stagger the change just in case you do run into problems you'll be able to diagnose any issues quicker...

Hiya Chris, Good idea on "one at a time" and I'll look at the pin kits too.

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Standard practice on a TDi is to remove the pump without disturbing the timing belt, but itf you don't know when it was last done it's worth changing the belt too.

At 90k, I'd be rebuilding injectors, personally.

I didn't realise you could do that. I did the belt when I did the chassis.. I've got spare injectors to send so I'll do that but had thought I'd need to do the pump because of the magnetic flakes?

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Donald , those flakes are the heat treated faces of the rotor/rollers etc in the head of the IP breaking up . Not that uncommon now as these VE pumps get older , some say it's made worse by the low-sulphur content of modern diesel . It will need a major re-con or a service exchange Bosch supplied core I'd say . The strange thing is they will keep running well when like this for some time with the only symptom being the stop sol. not working

cheers

Steveb

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My 2 cents - just been down the road of a FIP overhaul earlier this year. There was a weird jammed fuel pin problem in mine after the overhaul which the injector servicing folks had NEVER come across before, and two weeks after wrestling with mine they had another pump come in with the same problem, jammed pin. They 'suspect' it might be the lubricants in the diesel.

Anyway my pump was done by Precision Engineering in Inverness, a proper Bosch service agent. Family business, long running, and with a great reputation locally. If you re-read my previous posts on this you'll get a sense of the problems we wrestled with, and despite my 110 being in their shop a couple of times after the pump was overhauled to pull the pump off again, check all engine timings, to narrow down problem, they did all this other wrestling under warranty, no additional charge to me.

I have no connection with them at all, I'm just a customer delighted by their commitment to get it right and have me happy, and maintain their reputation. So if you want it done up in the north I can recommend them.

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Did the stuck fuel pin manifest itself by going to full throttle on start up ?

Steveb

No it was very odd. It was the horizontal pin that abuts the boost pin. The boost pin being the vertical one that varies with turbo pressure and is pushed up/down in the centre of the pump, with the black nylon/rubber diaphragm on top. The horizontal pin moves fore and aft according to its position against the ramp-angle on the boost pin, altering the fuel delivery accordingly.

The standard Bosch pump test requires fuel delivery measurement at full boost and no boost, but what happened was that on full boost (I think) the pin moved as it should then jammed solid. As the test is not cyclical the reading showed as spot-on within the pump specs. but the pin did not retract again.

I then had an engine that had a 'flat' fuel curve as the boost pin was jammed solid by the small pin stuck out against it. As this was a novel problem, the pump engineer (40 years experience) didn't spot it. Bosch UK themselves were surprised when the engineer ordered a new pin - they dont stock them in the UK apparently as there is no demand! Anyway a few weeks later another 200tdi pump came in for service and its pin was jammed as well, same as mine, when they inspected it. Pump engineer said he'd 35+ years of pump servicing without seeing this and then two in the one month! Something to bear in mind.

Because this was not an issue they'd ever come across before the engineers didn't spot it initially and, assuming the pump was operating within Bosch spec, instead tried to compensate by altering the fueling (external screw) which improved the carp performance a bit but produced a load of smoke and too high EGT, and flat spots all over the rev range and virtually no performance over 50mph.

Eventually they pulled off the engine timing cover checked timing and belt (spot on) and narrowed it down to the pump again so took that off and had another poke around and resolved it.

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Mine suffered a similar issue, though I suspect a different cause.

I took the cover off the boost compensator housing to inspect the diaphragm and also to see out of interest if it was all OK and standard in there. I was unable to move the boost pin up and down at all as it had seized. After liberal application of WD-40 I managed to get it freed off enough to rotate and go up and down a bit but unfortunately on reassembly the car wouldn't run properly. It would idle but there was no power off tickover. It appears that in my struggle to free off the boost pin I had moved the fuel metering pin (which is located horizontally and rides on the eccentric cone as described above) slightly and this had somehow caused my problem. After stripping the FIP off the car I was able to fix it by removing the throttle arm and the plug at the back of it which gave access to the lever which pushes the metering pin out. By tapping this inwards gently and working the boost pin up and down I was able to free up the metering pin enough to get the boost pin and its cone out past it. All cleaned up and reassembled and it was working fine. However a pretty hefty leak soon developed out of the breather in the back of the boost compensator housing - it seems there is an o-ring on the fuel metering pin that prevents diesel entering the chamber within which the boost pin/cone shaft runs and this had failed (probably due to me forcing a slightly rusty pin to move again), allowing diesel into the housing and up out of the breather to atmosphere.

I'm still not entirely sure what caused the poor running problem as before I took it apart it would have been all seized up in there but the car ran fine with plenty of power. All I can surmise is that the metering pin had happened to originally seize in a position which allowed the car to run well - and when I shifted it a bit on my first attempt to remove the diaphragm I moved it into a position which caused the opposite. However I was under the impression that the pin only affected on-boost fuelling so not sure if that's possible.

Basically... they're complicated things!

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I didn't realise you could do that. I did the belt when I did the chassis.. I've got spare injectors to send so I'll do that but had thought I'd need to do the pump because of the magnetic flakes?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Land-Rover-Diesel-Engine-Timing-Tool-Kit-for-200Tdi-300Tdi-2-5D-12J-2-5TD-/281697717086?hash=item41967e0b5e:g:tswAAOSwstxVXEXj

See the big thing in the middle, that's the fuel pump pulley locking plate...

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Mine suffered a similar issue, though I suspect a different cause.

I took the cover off the boost compensator housing to inspect the diaphragm and also to see out of interest if it was all OK and standard in there. I was unable to move the boost pin up and down at all as it had seized. After liberal application of WD-40 I managed to get it freed off enough to rotate and go up and down a bit but unfortunately on reassembly the car wouldn't run properly. It would idle but there was no power off tickover. It appears that in my struggle to free off the boost pin I had moved the fuel metering pin (which is located horizontally and rides on the eccentric cone as described above) slightly and this had somehow caused my problem. After stripping the FIP off the car I was able to fix it by removing the throttle arm and the plug at the back of it which gave access to the lever which pushes the metering pin out. By tapping this inwards gently and working the boost pin up and down I was able to free up the metering pin enough to get the boost pin and its cone out past it. All cleaned up and reassembled and it was working fine. However a pretty hefty leak soon developed out of the breather in the back of the boost compensator housing - it seems there is an o-ring on the fuel metering pin that prevents diesel entering the chamber within which the boost pin/cone shaft runs and this had failed (probably due to me forcing a slightly rusty pin to move again), allowing diesel into the housing and up out of the breather to atmosphere.

I'm still not entirely sure what caused the poor running problem as before I took it apart it would have been all seized up in there but the car ran fine with plenty of power. All I can surmise is that the metering pin had happened to originally seize in a position which allowed the car to run well - and when I shifted it a bit on my first attempt to remove the diaphragm I moved it into a position which caused the opposite. However I was under the impression that the pin only affected on-boost fuelling so not sure if that's possible.

Basically... they're complicated things!

The initial removal of the stuck pin (with the pump still in the van) was via the plug you mention - but the pin was so well jammed they had to weld a rod onto it and heave it out!

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Jocklandjohn,

Thank you for the recommendations. I used Precision Engineering many moons ago before I moved south for work so I've sent them an email and will give them a call when I get a chance.

Chris,

I bought that kit ages ago when I first got the 90, that was a good memory jogger that its in the cupboard and I dug it out last night to check. :blush:

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