Turbo upgrade / modification 200tdi

[Daan]

From your description, i suspect your change has left it in "full boost" position, but the stock tune (max fuel etc) is mild enough that your not getting much smoke when off boost, but have had a big increase to off boost fuelling (as the pump thinks its on boost) and as such much more power in the low part of the rev range. That change can be acheived with the pump working as it should however, via the various adjustments, while also increasing top end power. Unfortunately your approach wouldnt work if you wanted a decent hike in power.

.

It is indeed in the full boost position, and this is what I want it to do. As mentioned, there is no smoke to speak off, and therefore the enrichment is not that great. There is still the RPM regulator in the pump that stops it getting max fuel, as you are not at high revs while doing it.

I don't agree that the result can be achieved with normal pump settings; the pump is waiting for the turbo to achieve high boost, but it will only get high boost if the revs raise. It was mainly in deep water that I floored it and nothing happened for this reason. The mod has therefore given me the result I want without affecting the lifetime of the engine. It is things like very high boost and amounts of fuel that will reduce the lifetime of your engine. To be fair, I got 160 km/hr with the standard setup on 3.54 diffs and 255/85/16 tyres. thats more power than I need.

Daan

[B reg 90]

My take for what it's worth:

Assumptions:

• This is an off roader, rather a 4x4 daily driver, i.e. off road performance is to be omptimised
• It's a 90 ??
• You have off road biased tyres that increase rolling resistance quite a lot

1/. Finalise your tyre size choice

2/. Correct your diff ratio's to give the land speed you are happy with in low range 1st gear - I found 35" tyres with standard diffs meant I was far to fast when descending hills on winch challenges. Dropping to 4.75 diffs made a huge difference. This has the advantage of dropping your high range as well back to standard.

3/. Chose a transfer box ratio to suit your intended driving. I'd draw up a graph of a standard 90 on 29" tyres and look at the gear spread. Then see what transfer box you need to roughly match it.

Why - There is no point being over geared:

A 90 is a heavy vehicle with significant wind resistance - your going to struggle to get a much higher top speed what ever you do (unless you go for a massive V8)

Add off road tyres and the increase in rolling resistance will sap power.

Land rover tried to put the engine revs at the most economical in each gear to get a reasonable fuel efficiency. Your mate may be compensating for his over gearing by boosting his engine power, but he will only accelerate as approximately as fast as a standard motor and pay more to do it..... If your going to boost the power it seems pointless if your not actually going to see any benefit when driving?

You are stuck with the rev range of your engine - hence you need gear ratio's close enough to stop your engine revs dropping too much when you change up so that the engine has enough have the torque to continue to accelerate 'briskly'.

If it is purely an off roader then I'd be tempted to fit a higher ratio transfer box. Realistically your not going to do 60 - 80 mph off road, so 5th is useless. Stick in a 1.6 transfer box and high range is suddenly a bit lower. You get better acceleration in high range and can use the full 5 gears. High 1st is lower so you can do most off roading in High range, then you have a better top speed without needing to stop and change between low/high box.

After that is suspect it depends on how much you want to spend:

Cheap - bigger intercooler, tweak fuel pump, up boost pressure

Expensive:

• Fit a water cooled charge cooler instead of an standard air cooled intercooler - gives you max cooling of inlet air even when stationary in mud, hence more oxygen into cylinder. Redlinemike has one on his TD5 - Allisport did some before and after temperature logging. A standard intercooler quickly becomes heat soaked with no air flow over it and hence does little cooling. A charge cooler was giving a significant temp drop with the vehicle stationary, mimicking the effect of massive air flow over an standard intercooler (equivalent of motorway driving). Down side - there is always a little fan running on the charge cooler radiator, the noise is irritating. The added advantage is the more compact size of a charge cooler - results in the engine coming on boost quicker (you may or may not value this, I would).
• Fit a VNT. It will give you more power lower down the rev range. This will make the car accelerate better at lower revs and 'feel' more powerful even if the peak HP is the same. I had a conversation with Paul Round of Rally Raid UK. He described how he could over take car after car in the desert (Dakar) with a M57 (BMW 6 cylinder VNT diesel, ~ 280 HP) powered racer and leave 400+HP V8 racers standing. Basically he had the low down torque to accelerate up the gears. The guy in the V8 car (with a higher peak HP) had lower power at lower engine rev's compared to the M57 diesel. In sand this meant that when the V8 car changed up a gear the more power full V8 did not have the power to accelerate up from the reduced engine revs, in fact they were having to drop back down a gear as the V8 could not hold the speed in the higher gear.

In short if you are staying with a 200TDI, sort the gearing, maximise power through out the engine rev range to give you the best acceleration rate. Peak horse power is for boasting purposes only in the pub.

Adrian

[discomikey]

just going to add my 2p here.

My fuel pump is wound up as hard as it will go (without being embarrasingly smoky) I have backed it off a smidge recently on the max power screw which did indeed bring back some low end grunt. My turbo runs at the moment 18psi max, but previously ran 25 plus!

Boost makes the most difference in my experience, but even with the dropped boost levels i do not run out of torque, even towing a fully laden trailer uphill on B roads, im rarely out of 5th or 4th, it will really surprise you. (That's on LT77/1.2LT230/3.54 diffs/ 235/85R16 tyres - Discovery gearing with taller tyres)

an example, if any of you know the hill coming up out of Glynneath to Walters Arena, I was pulling 4th all the way up with an estimated 2.8t gross trailer weight. low ish revs 3/4 boost no issue.

The issue i find is with towing at speed. 60mph uphill against the wind brings EGT's through the roof!! theres plenty power to go but you darent burn your turbo up!

I believe this is because the turbo on a 200 isn't designed to work well at higher revs, therefore less airflow. less airflow means rich mixture, meaning hotter EGT's.

there is an argument for a VGT being able to supply the air at these revs, and therefore keeing the EGT's cooler.

[miketomcat]

I know ash very well which is why I pointed out almost no one was answering his question his truck is a very well set up bowler 88. Whilst I don't agree with some of his choices (and he knows that) I can't argue with the results he has investigated all other options hence he has ended at the expensive option of vvt etc.

Mike

[DrRob]

Ash - fit a TDV6....

Doc.

[Bowie69]

Nooo! Rover or Lexus V8

Engine bunfight anyone?

[Snagger]

TDV8 out of an L322 would be wondrous until you engage the gears, at which point the banging and screeching from the exploding drive train would drown the engine out...

[daslandroverman]

M57.

[Nigelw]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300-Tdi-VNT-TURBO-POWER-IMPROVEMENT-KIT-stage2-/170332647612

Although for 300Tdi I'm certain you could make it work.

Like the idea of an 88 inch TDV8, power to weight would be interesting on anything less tractive than blacktop unless driven by a nun lol

[honitonhobbit]

Mike, is Ash's bowler that red one - the one I met back when I first met you...?

[miketomcat]

Mike, is Ash's bowler that red one - the one I met back when I first met you...?

Yes that's the one and it's a very capable truck originally it was a V8.

Mike

[honitonhobbit]

I do remember one issue with it. On failed hill climb it wouldn't hold in reverse with a dead engine. So without brake assistance it would simply roll back, turn the engine over - it made for easy failed hill climbs because you could bump start it. It also had issues with control over downhill sections. Again a bit of the old Eric Carlson needed...

At the time I attributed it to too high a gearing. Although I had never seen that issue with a 33" clad Disco before. Now this was at least ten years ago, so some water has gone under the bridge. Ideas have changed, new experiences experienced etc. You got married, had kids, so did Dan; hell even I became a dad twice more... But I do still wonder why. Joe's 90 was doing the same thing IIRC. I advised both Ash and Joe to change the R&P as that was fashionable at the time - but I was under the impression Ash was running a 1.44 then. Joe's 90 was about as heavy a 90 as will still run on the road and was running 35's..... If I was Ash, I'd be tempted to 'borrow' a 1.44 T box for a trial run.

I remember the vehicle well - it was nice. Well thought out. Obviously not as nice as your old bus, but I did like Ash's soft top...

What happened to Mick's double cab Mazda Tomcat?

[honitonhobbit]

In general I'm a bit of a grumpy old cynic. I've made a new years resolution to my wife to be nicer to keyboard warriors, over zealous troll hunters and other internet annoyances. I need to really. Life is getting shorter by the day.

So here's a few reasons for my grumpy and somewhat childish replies to some of the posts on this thread.

I don't like upgraded boost pins. They are often a simple bodge for a tired engine. Note the word often.

I believe in treating engines (except those in hire cars or company cars) as I would want to be treated myself. With love, care, respect and a bit of pampering.

Engines become tired as they get used. As they get tired they produce less power - except the 2.25 petrol which just gets better and better. To make power from that tired engine. Bring on the love. Set it back to factory, refresh the worn bits, give it love and attention. Then improve it.

All engines diesel and petrol work better with some head work - forced induction or not. How it is done is important. It will improve flow.

Same goes for induction and exhaust. Although excess exhaust flow will 'pull' oil out of some turbo's (for those of you who like to read, read anything by Dave Vizard on engine tuning)

Factory settings make a good bench mark

Adequate gearing and a diet removes the need for more power. Look at the Scandinavian Rock Crawlers - a 1.9 VW Tdi banging out 100/115 bhp and about 150ft/lb, coupled to super low gearing and a light frame will do better than a barge with an LS6 and Spider Trax super ballast axles. It's the old Jeep issue - more power needs stronger, stronger means heavier, heavier means more power. Anyone here ever drive The Red Ibex? Lowish power, slush box, 1.44 and 4.7 shaved Salisbury's front and back, running through 35's. Great truck. One of the best, despite the oil leaks and it's ability to fill with water...

I hate and loathe needless complexity. I don't build stuff for the sake of building. Hell I'm a dad, I know my reproductive organs are adequately proportioned enough to breed with. I build stuff when I have no choice, or I'm bored. I'm rarely bored as I have so much to do

I strongly believe that Daan's truck is the best truck I have ever seen... It's superb in it's simplicity and thought

I suffer from a form of Dyslexia, where my brain works too fast to write stuff down. I have a high IQ but also suffer from OCD and occasionally Depression. This makes me very intolerant of real or imaginary incompetence - especially in myself. I shouldn't be allowed to use social media in any form as I get annoyed, then intolerant, then wound up as I can't say what I want fast enough, then annoyed because my reply is unsatisfactory, then upset because if I was in the pub I could have explained what I meant....

I live in the real world. Kids, mortgage, generally crappy job, not enough pay, too much tax, not enough time to run my other businesses unless my family doesn't see me, not enough holiday, trying to keep my wife happy, trying to manage a teenage daughter.... But I don't hide behind this. I accept it and work round it. So despite tools and a work shop I rarely get stuff done anymore. But this is now. 10, 20, 30 years ago stuff was different. I did stuff. Proved I could do it, then proved it again just because I could. I have no need to prove anything to anyone anymore. I have the T - shirt and the stuffed toy. Albeit both are a bit frayed now... So if I say something it generally has a strong foundation to it - not because I read it in a book or saw it on You Tube, but because I tried it, made the mistake and learned. Add this to the previous paragraph and that's why I am what I am.

Happy New Year one and all

[honitonhobbit]

Sorry to the OP for a) My rant and b) the hi-jack

[Daan]

Thanks for the honest explanation of your personality. And your comment made a great start of my year!

Has anybody else noticed ash is not reading anymore? I suppose there has only been one on topic comment about VNT turbos so far....

Daan

[landroversforever]

Thanks for the explanation, paints your previous posts on the thread in a much better light .

[Nigelw]

HH, you sound very much like me, only wiser.

I hope that something comes from this, whether it be a VNT blower or simpler ring and pinion gear solution?

I too admire Daans series, but I like comfort and use mine as the daily barge, something a Defender or Series couldnt offer on my limited buying budget, hence my rebuild of a cheap Discovery (modern Defenders have heaters that actually work but still leak water in lol)

[miketomcat]

Ash is very much a reader not a poster so I will guarantee he has read this but as I said no one has answered his question. And yes I live in a similar world to honitonhobbit and I did drive Andy's red ibex awesome truck but I still hate autos.

Mike

[honitonhobbit]

That's because you are still young but "hate" is a strong word

[daslandroverman]

I'm young (in relative terms) and like autos.

[honitonhobbit]

I think I like Auto's

Saw a great 'Auto' cartoon once. Won't post up it as I can't... It had a picture of an auto box with an arrow pointing at the input shaft saying "huge expectations" and an arrow at the output shaft end saying "massive disappointment"

But it's all so easy - I like easy

[qwakers]

this one?

[honitonhobbit]

Very similar, but yours is funnier

[Mo Murphy]

It's quite accurate though ?

[JeffR]

In general I'm a bit of a grumpy old cynic. I've made a new years resolution to my wife to be nicer to keyboard warriors, over zealous troll hunters and other internet annoyances. I need to really. Life is getting shorter by the day.

So here's a few reasons for my grumpy and somewhat childish replies to some of the posts on this thread.

I don't like upgraded boost pins. They are often a simple bodge for a tired engine. Note the word often.

I believe in treating engines (except those in hire cars or company cars) as I would want to be treated myself. With love, care, respect and a bit of pampering.

Engines become tired as they get used. As they get tired they produce less power - except the 2.25 petrol which just gets better and better. To make power from that tired engine. Bring on the love. Set it back to factory, refresh the worn bits, give it love and attention. Then improve it.

All engines diesel and petrol work better with some head work - forced induction or not. How it is done is important. It will improve flow.

Same goes for induction and exhaust. Although excess exhaust flow will 'pull' oil out of some turbo's (for those of you who like to read, read anything by Dave Vizard on engine tuning)

Factory settings make a good bench mark

Adequate gearing and a diet removes the need for more power. Look at the Scandinavian Rock Crawlers - a 1.9 VW Tdi banging out 100/115 bhp and about 150ft/lb, coupled to super low gearing and a light frame will do better than a barge with an LS6 and Spider Trax super ballast axles. It's the old Jeep issue - more power needs stronger, stronger means heavier, heavier means more power. Anyone here ever drive The Red Ibex? Lowish power, slush box, 1.44 and 4.7 shaved Salisbury's front and back, running through 35's. Great truck. One of the best, despite the oil leaks and it's ability to fill with water...

I hate and loathe needless complexity. I don't build stuff for the sake of building. Hell I'm a dad, I know my reproductive organs are adequately proportioned enough to breed with. I build stuff when I have no choice, or I'm bored. I'm rarely bored as I have so much to do

I strongly believe that Daan's truck is the best truck I have ever seen... It's superb in it's simplicity and thought

I suffer from a form of Dyslexia, where my brain works too fast to write stuff down. I have a high IQ but also suffer from OCD and occasionally Depression. This makes me very intolerant of real or imaginary incompetence - especially in myself. I shouldn't be allowed to use social media in any form as I get annoyed, then intolerant, then wound up as I can't say what I want fast enough, then annoyed because my reply is unsatisfactory, then upset because if I was in the pub I could have explained what I meant....

I live in the real world. Kids, mortgage, generally crappy job, not enough pay, too much tax, not enough time to run my other businesses unless my family doesn't see me, not enough holiday, trying to keep my wife happy, trying to manage a teenage daughter.... But I don't hide behind this. I accept it and work round it. So despite tools and a work shop I rarely get stuff done anymore. But this is now. 10, 20, 30 years ago stuff was different. I did stuff. Proved I could do it, then proved it again just because I could. I have no need to prove anything to anyone anymore. I have the T - shirt and the stuffed toy. Albeit both are a bit frayed now... So if I say something it generally has a strong foundation to it - not because I read it in a book or saw it on You Tube, but because I tried it, made the mistake and learned. Add this to the previous paragraph and that's why I am what I am.

Happy New Year one and all

My god Dave, ya getting mellow in your old age! Been told by a (former) client that perhaps it is time I "toned down my attitude" - well that's English Nature of the Christmas card list.