Turbo upgrade / modification 200tdi

[Landy-Novice]

Great. His uncontactable nature will really make for a steady market supply then!

probably works in his favour keeping market price of vnt kits still in the price range of daft and ever increasing. i know he's very busy, a victim of there own sucsess? but fair play to him. think of all other companies that buy kits in bulk from turbotechnics and he's getting a slice of every pie!

sorry red90, spelling not my strong point.

vulcane, take it controller i posted earlier no good?

[vulcan bomber]

I wouldn't buy one.....

[matfield]

I always thought they were pricey, but having exhausted all other avenues for power improvement, and more importantly, power delivery, I found it really did make a huge difference. I'm not in anyway affiliated with any of the suppliers, but pound for pound this made the biggest improvement.

Just to clarify, I had also had the head ported, full width intercooler, and reached the limit on the standard turbo before heat output became a disadvantage to the amount of pressure.

It all depends what you are trying to achieve, and how much work you're willing to do.

[reb78]

I wouldn't buy one.....

What's your plan then? I suspect you have some ideas??

[steve b]

...What about twin turbo's in a primary/secondary configuration ? not something I know much about but others may

cheers

Steveb

[vulcan bomber]

What's your plan then? I suspect you have some ideas??

Me and the brother in law are looking at making a stand alone brain for a VNT that can also control certain settings on the fuel pump.... Trouble is, we both have kids to feed before we are allowed to buy useful stuff like a VNT... If someone has a VNT to give away for free I would happily give it a loving home.

[reb78]

Me and the brother in law are looking at making a stand alone brain for a VNT that can also control certain settings on the fuel pump.... Trouble is, we both have kids to feed before we are allowed to buy useful stuff like a VNT... If someone has a VNT to give away for free I would happily give it a loving home.

So are there any options that might fit ready to adapt for this? I mean from other vehicles here, not brand new expensive things off the shelf. Would it be feasible to make an adapter plate for something that is a near fit size wise? (I'm sure you could!)

[Tanuki]

VNT/VGT is an interesting approach - as an alternative to using a wastegate. The twin-turbo is equally valid - though I've never been that impressed by various implementations: you can get the same effect with a single big turbo by changing-down a gear or two and using more throttle.

If you look at the stock power/torque curves of something like a TD5 Defender it seems to me that the turbo's significantly constraining things by the time you're hitting 3000RPM - which I'd consider should be the point where the fun's just about to start.

Power increases with the volume of air/fuel shifted through the engine - which in turn increases with higher RPM. OK, we're unlikely to see Diesels regularly hitting 7500RPM like current-generation production petrol engines (Honda VTEC), but it has to be said, you can't produce power/torque unless you're getting the airflow, and that means you need to get lots of fillings-and-emptyings of the cylinders, so revs!

[Ex Member]

You can't due high revs in a diesel due to flame speed limitations. Once the piston approaches flame speed, power drops off and that is as much as you can get. This is why they run more cylinders and shorter strokes, to allow higher engine speeds.

[Nigelw]

But this is where comments made by someone else somewhere else are valid.

A 200Tdi/300Tdi is not by any means a modern engine, good at what it does but, if you want high power performance, reconsider your engine choice.

If I hit 3000rpm it's short burst overtaking and off road will seldom see rpm over 2000 unless I am in a pickle.

[reb78]

But this is where comments made by someone else somewhere else are valid.

A 200Tdi/300Tdi is not by any means a modern engine, good at what it does but, if you want high power performance, reconsider your engine choice.

If I hit 3000rpm it's short burst overtaking and off road will seldom see rpm over 2000 unless I am in a pickle.

Ah, but in a defender with standard gearing, 70mph is around 3k rpm. I drop mine with the overdrive.

[Aragorn]

Me and the brother in law are looking at making a stand alone brain for a VNT that can also control certain settings on the fuel pump.... Trouble is, we both have kids to feed before we are allowed to buy useful stuff like a VNT... If someone has a VNT to give away for free I would happily give it a loving home.

Whats wrong with the arduino based project already available here:

http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/

It also already lets you control the LDA on the fuel pump for smoke/torque limiting etc...

[Aragorn]

VNT/VGT is an interesting approach - as an alternative to using a wastegate. The twin-turbo is equally valid - though I've never been that impressed by various implementations: you can get the same effect with a single big turbo by changing-down a gear or two and using more throttle.

If you look at the stock power/torque curves of something like a TD5 Defender it seems to me that the turbo's significantly constraining things by the time you're hitting 3000RPM - which I'd consider should be the point where the fun's just about to start.

Power increases with the volume of air/fuel shifted through the engine - which in turn increases with higher RPM. OK, we're unlikely to see Diesels regularly hitting 7500RPM like current-generation production petrol engines (Honda VTEC), but it has to be said, you can't produce power/torque unless you're getting the airflow, and that means you need to get lots of fillings-and-emptyings of the cylinders, so revs!

Twin turbo appears to be extremely effective on BMW's 335d and 123d engines. The big turbo gives you the power and airflow at the top end, but the little turbo ensures when your driving normally at 1500rpm, you've got plenty torque available. With just the single large turbo, yes you'd have the power when you were blasting it, but it'd be a pig to drive in a sedate manner.

Diesels will rev, the M57 in my 330d revs to 5k, and ive heard of folk with tuned VAG TDI's going higher than that. Usually though, the cam profile and valve timing used in diesel engines means the power starts rapidly falling off above about 4k, even with a massive turbo.

[Bowie69]

Pretty sure in those crazy-swedish videos of the OM606 they hit 6000rpm quite happily.

[landroversforever]

Pretty sure in those crazy-swedish videos of the OM606 they hit 6000rpm quite happily.

I was about to say that.... the OM606 revs like a petrol and is part of the reason they can get silly high bhp numbers out of them. Something to do with it being indirect injection? They're certainly a revvy engine for a diesel.

I've read of at least one that was revving to 7.5K.

Twin turbos on an OM606 is also very effective if they're matched properly. You then get the torque spread over a far larger area of the rev range. Twin turbos in a compound set up is what I'm aiming for in the 90, but need to make sure I've got enough space in the engine bay first.

And Taniki, to say you can get the same effect with just a single large turbo and changing down a gear is totally missing the point. Yes you can achieve the same peak power and torque. However you'll never get the spread of the power that the compound set up will achieve. The other point there is that compounding allows you to use a turbo far larger than would otherwise work, I think I'm correct in saying you can even drive a turbo that would virtually never spool on its own. As turbo spool is directly related to the volume of exhaust gas. If you're not producing enough, you'll never spool the stupidly large single.

[honitonhobbit]

My mates Touareg V10 is chipped to 378bhp and 650ft/lb - that accelerates quite well

[Bowie69]

If you look at a dyno plot, the engine you want is the one with greater area under the graph, not the one that only makes power at 6500rpm and everywhere else it limps around at 50BHP.

No point in having 400 BHP at 4K+ and 50BHP at 1500rpm when you do most of your driving around at 1500-2000 rpm.

It is one reason why I've never really gone for turbo'd cars, but I am breaking the mould a bit with the moggy, EVENTUALLY (read: in a couple of years probably) it will be turbo'd, hope to get around 120BHP out of a 1275. Crucial thing though, I will be going with a smaller turbo than I could go for, as I prefer to have the grunt available everywhere. Should be around 85BHP even NA anyways

Peak figures mean very little....

[honitonhobbit]

On a serieous note the NAD 606 happily revs to 6k

The (3.oltr) 603 (a much better engine imhe) revs to 6k

My VW 1.6 TD revs to the sweet spot

[honitonhobbit]

Bowie - if you were prettier, I would kiss you. Some common sense

[landroversforever]

If you look at a dyno plot, the engine you want is the one with greater area under the graph, not the one that only makes power at 6500rpm and everywhere else it limps around at 50BHP.

No point in having 400 BHP at 4K+ and 50BHP at 1500rpm when you do most of your driving around at 1500-2000 rpm.

It is one reason why I've never really gone for turbo'd cars, but I am breaking the mould a bit with the moggy, EVENTUALLY (read: in a couple of years probably) it will be turbo'd, hope to get around 120BHP out of a 1275. Crucial thing though, I will be going with a smaller turbo than I could go for, as I prefer to have the grunt available everywhere. Should be around 85BHP even NA anyways

Peak figures mean very little....

Some of the torque 'curves' for the drift spec OM606s are hilarious, totally unusable on the street as they go like this: ........./\

Exactly the reason I want compounds, to have the advantage of power at the top of the rev in a similar place to a V8, but with the smaller turbo as well I don't loose out on the low down torque either. Rough estimates based on similar setups I should be seeing decent boost and torque from about 1500rpm.

Turboed cars have come on a LONG way Bowie... I've got a '65 plate John Cooper Works Mini 3dr. 231bhp and 320nm. You've got 320nm of torque from 1200rpm, right the way through to about 5000-5500rpm. You're more than welcome to a ride if you're over my way.

[Bowie69]

Bowie - if you were prettier, I would kiss you. Some common sense

Want some recent pics?

Turboed cars have come on a LONG way Bowie... I've got a '65 plate John Cooper Works Mini 3dr. 231bhp and 320nm. You've got 320nm of torque from 1200rpm, right the way through to about 5000-5500rpm. You're more than welcome to a ride if you're over my way.

I'm quite sure they have, and I will certainly take you up on the offer -however anything like that is somewhat out of my budget, and I DON'T like new cars as the unnecessary complexities are making them more and more unreliable, and when they do go bang, you can bet it will be expensive.

So... I am more talking about the earlier turbo cars, primitive FI or carbed engines, that were until recent years very peaky.

I know there are challenges getting VNT to work on a petrol car (Porsche have done it, not sure how reliable it will be), but with that licked it could get even better.

They you also have the VW/Audi supercharged AND turbocharged engines(Twincharged/TSI).... but then in both these cases you are running after additional complexities....

[lo-fi]

A more sensible approach with petrol is variable twin scroll (also sometimes called VGT): https://youtu.be/J06nj5-B_AE

A little off topic, but a point of interest nonetheless. Turbo engines - particularly turbo diesel - have come a long way precicesly because of tech like VNT. Take the venerable Audi 1.9tdi, for example. Pre VNT, it was 80hp with a well chosen turbo (by this I mean something that doesn't take half the rev range to spool). Then the AFN comes along and you've got the same drivable, quick spoiling turbo, but better breathing at higher flow rates and 110bhp. Either twin scroll or VNT essentially give you variable A/R and increase the limits between which the turbo works efficiently.

I have some experience with twin sequential turbos in the Supra and RX7. Nice idea, but far more complex than a single VNT, and I think you might struggle to get an efficient setup with two very tiny turbos for a 2.5 diesel anyway, packaging issues aside. Don't be scared of a little electronic wizardry here and there!

[vulcan bomber]

So are there any options that might fit ready to adapt for this? I mean from other vehicles here, not brand new expensive things off the shelf. Would it be feasible to make an adapter plate for something that is a near fit size wise? (I'm sure you could!)

There's a few that will bolt onto the current 200 Defender manifold, sadly I lost the list on my laptop last time it went tits up. And I've not had chance to look it all up again. There basically the turbo from the 2.8 TGV with different turbine housings on them.

[Lewis]

.........I've got a '65 plate John Cooper Works Mini 3dr. 231bhp and 320nm ......

23grand car and 1200quids worth of winch hawse, someone's doing alright for themselves

[landroversforever]

And the rest once I'd specced it up!

The advantages of having a reasonable job (well two actually) and still living at home, no wife and no children to pay for . I'm also pretty good with my money other than the truck and mini... I'm not out down the boozer every day and don't smoke either (unless really angry or on fire).