unreasonable expectations?

[forestgrump]

There has been a Land Rover in the family for pretty much as long as I've been alive. Dad had his first Series back in the 60's, so they've been a habit. Over the years I've enjoyed 4x4 Jeep, Toyota, Audi, but still kept coming back to LR.

My first 90 came from Roy Hammond in Halesworth. Bought 2nd hand at about 30,000 miles I'd run it for a few months when the clutch master cylinder went, Roy sent out a driver, collected the 90, fixed it, sent it back. No questions asked.

I don't expect super reliability for my defenders, something is pretty much always going wrong, but I'm loyal, stump up the cash and keep a spare from BMW, or Volvo, or VW or Toyota or Lexus kicking around just so I don't get stuck ( yes, you need to, Defenders really are that idiosyncratic )

Last year I bought another 110, a TDCI Puma, to park beside Roy's 90 ( yes I still have it ). Bought at 20,000 miles I'd put about 10k on it when, guess what, the clutch master went. The wagon was three years old and out of warranty. Aware as I was of the TDCI's historic trouble with all things clutch related I wrote to Land Rover and asked if they'd put it right... The reply is below.

I'm not sure exactly why, but I suddenly became very tired of LR's corporate b/s. On receipt of their email it took me exactly three hours to sell the troubled 110 on and replace it with a Hilux. LR lost a loyal customer of many decades and Toyota made a valuable sale. I may be being unreasonable. I might be trying to justify the move to a 3ltr, automatic, legendarily reliable truck from Japan because I'm feeling guilty. Or perhaps the absence of the word 'sorry' in the reply just turned my head.

Who can say.

Either way I let them know I'd sold it, but they couldn't be ar*ed to reply. So that's a LR customer lost for life and the missus is getting an TT this year not an Evoque, lucky girl.

Dear Mr ,

Thank you for your email dated 11th December regarding the concerns you have been facing with your vehicle.

As the vehicle is out of the manufactures warranty I would need a Land Rover approved retailer to confirm the fault and the root cause.

Please note that for vehicles outside of the manufacturers warranty, any contribution towards cost would be considered as goodwill which would need to be reviewed once the fault and root cause has been diagnosed.

You will need to book your vehicle in with your local approved retailer to which they will need to book an engineer out to diagnose any faults. If your vehicle is not under warranty there will be a diagnostics charge which the retailer will be able to advise you on.

Once you have booked in your vehicle please contact me or have the retailer contact me and I will be more than happy to work with the retailer to try and resolve any issues you have.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate in contacting me back on my contact details below.

Kind Regards

--

MP

Case Manager

UK Customer Relationship Centre

[Maverik]

Hmm, I know what you mean.

But this is an odd one. Back at the end of 2013, "we" Aberdeen Mountain Rescue Team have a policy to rotate out our 110 vehicles every 10 years and we had got 2x Td5's that where just turned 10yrs old... so we went to our local LR stealer they'd just changed franchise owner form Town and County to Peter Vardy, so you'd think they where keen to keep business - not the case, considering we where asking them for a 35-40k truck (after customisation) they had no interest at all in supporting us - considering they had supplied our last 10 or so 110's they just said production of Defender is ending, we're not interested... so we went to the next closest LR stealer which was Frank Ogg, he tripped over himself to supply us with what we needed, although they didn't quite listed to the specification and gave us a standard LR rood rack over the Brownchurch special we asked for, we got there in the end...

So with the impending demise of the Defender range we got authorisation to get an order in for a last 110 to guarantee a replacement for the last Td5 we had coming up for retirement (last year). So having got a few contact in LR Aberdeen we had a bit of a moan about the service we had gotten and outlined we wanted another vehicle and the closer to home we can get it the better... this seemed to go up the tree pretty quick at Peter Vardy as within a week, we'd been invited to have a meeting with Peter (Vardy) at the dealer ship to discus the lack of service, the outcome of the meeting was one new land rover put aside for us, £500 cash transferred to us for our trouble, and the dealers manager was ordered to hand over his White Puma XS as a loan to us for 2 weeks...

After that they have bent double to help us, and to date I think they're one of the most helpful garages I need to deal with... but its blatantly obvious now what level of customer they are now targeting, I regularly go to the garage to pic up spares, and it makes me chuckle th number of black suits that are hanging around and you get blinded by the sparkles of the lights from all the fancy hi end rangy's they've got there... I spotted one of the fancy 500bhp RR's for 109k... in there forecourt! not even inside the other day..... a bit sad in a way.

If you've ever chatted to any of the LR experience folk they're all usually die hard LR fans, but I think the purists are now buried deep in the organisation these days and they're doing what they think they need to do to get by...

Doesn't excuse your letter though, its a tad impersonal. - but if you wrote to Toyota do you think you'd get anything different? - sorry for long story!

[Bowie69]

My take on it, is that the letter was really all they could offer to do, it is after all out of warranty, no matter what the mileage. It sounds like the diagnostic charge could be waived also, at least to me.

I'd say maybe you were living up to your name in that moment

BTW, the modern Hiluxes aren't that reliable...

[Maverik]

I have to continually put up with the local gamekeepers snide comments of him comparing his L200 with my 90... yawn...

[d-9]

I think that is a fairly good response from LR, they didn't say no, they told you the process for getting it sorted.

Are clutch MCs that big a job on defenders? On my series I could change the MC in less time than writing a letter to landrover.

[Bowie69]

Are clutch MCs that big a job on defenders? On my series I could change the MC in less time than writing a letter to landrover.

Can't imagine so, 2 bolts, a union, and bleed it. This is the cylinder:

http://new.lrcat.com/#!/1235/6391/6392/554/6424

[JeffR]

For my sins I once bought a new Suzuki Grand Vitara (imagine sound effects of spitting, loudly) which tried to kill us numerous times (including a 720 degree spin in the fast lane of the M5) so back it went to the stealers, over a period of 2 years or so , they had it more than we did. Work loads meant I didn't have time to really argue, then after the M5 incident (wife was 8 1/2 months pregnant) I kinda lost it, big time. Suzukis attitude was "if you think you have a problem, we suggest you take legal advice..." I offered them it back as a suppository, covered in carborundum paste...

[FridgeFreezer]

I wouldn't call that letter "corporate BS", it's about what you'd get from any manufacturer of anything being asked to fix something that is out of warranty - a polite refusal. Otherwise, every other chancer with a vehicle just out of warranty will be trying their luck and where do they draw the line?

[forestgrump]

The cylinder isn't like the TD5 (which I've done, it's easy) the tdci unit is inside the bell housing assembly, which means dropping the gearbox. The part number has changed a number of times, so I'm thinking it needs occasional 'improvement'.

The unit failed approaching a busy roundabout where the a505 crosses the a1301, peddle straight to the floor, in neutral, no engine braking on a 110 doing 60. Fortunately there was enough space to coast onto the narrow strip of soil between the tarmac and the ditch. Could have been a totally different story.

My past experience with Toyota, I've run Colorado's in the past and my daughter has a rag top MR2, is that the service, communication and back up has been first class ( even on ancient MR2's ). In fact my first Colorado was purchased after visiting a LR dealer in Bury St Edmunds, the LR salesman suggested a Defender would be a terrible purchase & I should really be thinking of a freelander, a disco, a RR anything but a Defender.....

I'm a fairly high mileage user, I've had Alfa, BMW, Citroen, Jeep, Saab, Toyota, Vauxhall and VW. It maybe I have had more contact with LR because the Defender does tend to fail ( I speak nicely to spares, don't hassle for warranty, pay cash, I'm actually an easy customer ) but LR in general do seem to be enjoying the moral superiority of selling more cars than they can make. The old maxim of a customer in the hand is worth two in the field seems to have no weight.

Anyway, just my experience, I'm sure there are far more glowing reports than there are disgruntled customers. And it has to be said the Defender is hands down the better bit of kit in the rough, I'm hoping the replacement is going to be just as capable.

[honitonhobbit]

If it was Toyota then it would come form Gibraltar, from a Danish Company called TGS. It would be a white 70 series troopie with lost of expensive bolt on stuff from Warn and TJM.

[Bowie69]

You wrote 'master cylinder' in first post.

[Nigelw]

No, not unreasonable, but as with all letters sent out to customers, the aim is to seem helpful without admitting any liability, sorry is an admission of sorts and couple that to a nifty five hundred pound an hour lawyer and your on a winner with claims and damages etc,

Land Rover is currently status, it used to mean something else, the new buyers market is upper middle classes, anyone winced at the price of even low end specced vehicles?

They priced themselves away from working classes a long time ago, We as enthusiasts keep our dinosaurs alive with revitalization parts and love, modern society is a consumer based beast with disposable attitude,today's top end luxury RR

is tomorrow's white goods.

Shame but, a return to valuing customers just aint gonna happen, a mate works in LR Hasselt, he tells the workshops service dept is backlogged by 6 weeks, no way they're willing to do freebies or even glance in your direction on 125/hr labour rates!

[missingsid]

I don't have LRs that can remember a warranty, but letter is what I would expect. My local dealer sold me some small parts for the Disco, proper LR parts at the same price as ****part and didn't charge postage!

I can't complain!

[Happyoldgit]

Standard letter. JLR asked you to take the vehicle to a dealer for inspection and apraisal. Neither they, or Hammonds [i've had vehicles from them too] certainly wouldn't commit to anything before having received a report. If you had taken it in maybe something would have come from it either through JLR or a goodwill gesture from the dealer.

Once you told them you had sold the vehicle what could they have said other than we are sorry to have lost you but thanks for your custom ...or some other meaningless waffle, you no longer owned the vehicle so no issue remained.

We've had / got other vehicles too, anything can fail at any time on any of them.

[qwakers]

i feel i must side with the dealer too.

i warrant the IT work i do, any kit i sell for 1 year and any work completed for a month to cover any mistakes i might have made. once its out of warrenty, tough, im not a charity. this has served me well and id expect the same from anyone i do business with. including car dealers.

[forestgrump]

I've re-written the letter in the manner of a UK Customer Relationship Centre, Case Manager, who cares. See if the difference is noticeable.

I don't mind how Land Rover treat me, they have lots of customers and I have lots of choices of car to buy. We will find and make our relationships based on trust and respect, as businesses and customers always do. Land Rover don't make a car I can't afford but they make quite a few I don't want to buy and, as in so many things, I am more Defender and a Pint than RR Autobiography and Gigi Cocktail. I just think it wouldn't take much to keep their cash customers on side, after all they'll have a new Defender to flog soon, and ( especially with Land Rover ) you never know when you are going to need your friends.

Dear Mr ,

I am sorry to hear of the problems you are experiencing with your Land Rover Defender. As you probably know Land Rovers enjoy a strong reputation for toughness and reliability, it is concerning that on this occasion you are suffering difficulties.

As the vehicle is out of the manufactures warranty I would need a Land Rover approved retailer to confirm the fault and the root cause, thereafter any contribution towards cost would be considered as goodwill which we will need to be discussed once the fault is diagnosed. However I am anxious that your Defender should be back on the road as soon as possible, I notice from your postcode that your local dealer is ********** I have spoken with the workshop manager and he is happy to arrange for your vehicle to be inspected, his number is ******************

As a valued Land Rover customer I am keen to ensure that your experience of our vehicles is as positive as possible, I shall followed up this email in the next week to see how you have got on.

With kind regards.

--

MP

Case Manager

UK Customer Relationship Centre

[forestgrump]

although clearly I'd expect LR to send a letter checked for spelling, typo's and grammar ....

[Sheffield]

By today's standards I suggest that is the best you could expect, and under the circumstances, quite reasonable.

[forestgrump]

Sheffield, I agree entirely, and I don't disagree with the reasonableness of it. Although, from experience, having to take the clutch out of a three year old car with 30,000 on the clock is, by today's standards, a little strong. However the vehicle was out of guarantee, and that is an end to it.

There may be a connection/relationship between price, value, service.. someone, somewhere could probably write a thesis. Is it entirely unreasonable of me to expect a personal, thoughtful, careful response to my needs as a customer with a £ 30k vehicle as to, say, someone with a phone contract, a gas boiler fault, an busted laptop? The reply I achieved from LR was quite matter of fact i.e. customers are a nuisance, and should be treated with the appropriate disdain. ( especially those who insist on purchasing an obsolete tractor we've been attempting to axe for twenty years ).

My point is that it wouldn't have been hard to play it differently, but that's not how Land Rover rolls, as it were. This '**** end of the stick' treatment is not how I treat my customers, but I'm self employed and I have staff to feed, so I may be a little more sensitive to some of the more subtle nuances of trade. In my limited experience settling unreasonable matters with grace rarely hurts. Especially if you want the customer back, of course you can do what you like if you don't.

Anyway, no longer my problem. If my experience with my past Toyota's is anything to go on there isn't enough work to keep a "Case Manager" on full time.

[Cynic-al]

Warranties are a pain in the bum. They are usually handled by a 3rd company (an inaurance compny if you like) who are paid by the manufacturer and deal with claims through the dealer. I've asked on several occasions to speak to them directly and have never been allowed. You can argue with them through the service assistant at the dealer but it's like Chinese whispers. Unless it's something like a dead engine it's usually easier just to fix it yourself.

My experiences;

Isuzu - put new heater plugs in without question even though the old ones were still working I just wanted them changing before the warranty ran out. Refused to touch the Isuzu towbar that was rusty on the basis that it was cosmetic not structural. Wouldn't do it under bodywork warranty either.

Vauxhall and citroen warranty never questioned the dealer recommendations however the dealers were completely incompetent at diagnosing or repairing the faults.

Ford warranty you might as well assume doesn't exist. Most of the stuff is only covered for a year.

Nissan refused to replace or contribute towards a blown engine on a 3.5 year old xtrail on the basis that it had been used for caravan towing... which does leave you wondering why there is a full page advert in the caravan club magazine every month suggesting it's the perfect caravan tow car?

Vw agreed to replace a 12 week old car with flaking paint however it would take them 6 months to deliver the replacement and they wanted paying for the depreciation that the faulty car would suffer from new to the arrival of the replacement.

Hyundai repaired our paint on the bumper without question and even gave us a car off the forecourt as a courtesy car

Mercedes replaced a faulty steering rack for free even though the car was out of warranty. They even collected it and hired us a car to use whilst it was away. Also if you have your car serviced by them they extend the warranty for another year.

[LiftedDisco]

I don't think that Land Rover's response was out of hand... They left the options open to pick up some of the tab at a later date but I do agree that the failure to say 'sorry' at any stage is slightly poor...

I'm having a slight issue with Mini at the moment - we have a 2.0l Mini Cooper SD at the moment with turbo lag / hesitation and it's been in the dealer more than on our drive over the last 10 weeks or so. We finally got it back on Friday morning, apparently 'fixed' for the engine management light to come on later that same day..

Needless to say, it was back in yesterday morning and I'm up for a 'firm but fair' discussion tomorrow morning which may well revolve around them buying the car back off me...

Grrrrr!