Peaklander Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Not wanting to clutter the other thread where I have used the head-still-on method to change my seals (here) I'd like to use a new thread to ask more advice from the wealth of knowledge on this forum. When I changed the seals the first time, the blue smoke was worse, not clearing at all with the engine idling on the drive. I had a look at what I'd done and realised that I hadn't correctly located some of the seals onto the tops of the valve guides. So I did it again, repeating the method but trying to ensure that they were tapped on properly. I use the same seals as they all looked ok without any damage. However the blue smoke persistsed - clearing after 200m. So I looked a third time yesterday. Here are a couple of pics. As you can see, two seals have lifted. If I push them back on they pull off with slight finger pressure. One responded to a firmer tap and wouldn't then pull off so easily but one of the new seals won't locate as well as an old one. So I fitted an old one - picked one that seems to drag on the stem (hope that means a oil tight fit). Put it back together a third time, reset tappets and left overnight. It wasn't as cold this morning but I still got 200m of blue smoke. Hmm... Now I suspect the new seals and wonder if anyone else has had poor quality ones? I paid £2.89 +vat each for genuine parts but they have absolutely no manufacturer marks on them and they were in a plain bag. I've asked the (reputable) supplier to confirm that they are genuine but that was only yesterday and no reply received yet. Can I suspect the seals themselves? It can't be too difficult to seat them properly can it? If my blue smoke clears after 200m then it can't be anything else can it? Got to get it sorted as it's very anti-social as you drive through campsites (or down the road past the neighbours). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Did you drive it yesterday after the job? If not then it could just have been the residual oil in the exhaust ports... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Yes - only a dozen miles but the water got to temp. I've just had a reply from Dominic at LRSeries who confirms that they are genuine. Apparently JLR supply in bags of x10 (what's all that about?) so they have to break them open. He asks if I have used the correct seals saying that the inlet and exhaust are different. That's not what my parts book extract shows. Have I made a mistake? I only ordered ETC8663 for all eight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 those seals are all the same on 200 & 300Tdi engines. as stated on LRSeries own webpage for them http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/6152/ETC8663-VALVE-STEM-SEAL.html?search=etc8663&page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Thanks Western; I think he must be getting confused with petrol or na diesels. Wrong seals isn't the answer to my troubles! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 If they are anything like most valve seals, they have quite a number of ridges underneath/inside to grip on the guide, getting them off can be a right job, from experience, due to access issues. When installing them, they need to go fully home, as I said in the other thread, I use a 10mm or thereabouts socket to push mine home with, and a small hammer, I tap until the sound goes 'dead'. None of the seals I have fitted have deformed doing this. With a valve still in place you will likely need a deep socket or even a piece of tube the right diameter, but perfectly doable. The problem is if you don't get them fully home, the valve spring retainer/collets will start smashing their way into the seal every time the valve opens -I doubt I need to tell you this isn't very good for it.... You should be able to measure the depth of the seals internally, and measure the guide height above the valve spring seat, subtract one from the other and you will know how much of a gap you need underneath each seal to ensure it is home. Either that, or measure the seal overall height, internal height, subtract one from the other, add it to the height of guide above the deck, and measure each as you install to ensure overall height is equal to that You're a bright chap, you will work it out Admire your perseverance, let's just hope it's not your turbo seals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Hmmm lrseries... I just bought a starter motor clutch "oem" which is valeo, the thing was expensive, came in a clear bag with no branding or stamping on the bearing. I contacted them and the reply was that they where army surplus and that they came on a pallet of 100's and if it was good for the army it must be oem... Hmmm well comparing the valeo branded one I took off and the supplied one I'm dubious of the quality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Hmmm lrseries... I just bought a starter motor clutch "oem" which is valeo, the thing was expensive, came in a clear bag with no branding or stamping on the bearing. I contacted them and the reply was that they where army surplus and that they came on a pallet of 100's and if it was good for the army it must be oem... Hmmm well comparing the valeo branded one I took off and the supplied one I'm dubious of the quality... LRSeries' Dominic confirmed that they really are sourced from JLR so I take it that they are genuine. I rang a dealer to check on availability and they told me that you have to buy ten at a time - they won't split a bag. So if LRS says that a plain bag is sometimes used then I would understand. I'm just a bit dubious that they are absolutely plain with no identification on the rubber at all. If they are anything like most valve seals, they have quite a number of ridges underneath/inside to grip on the guide, getting them off can be a right job, from experience, due to access issues. When installing them, they need to go fully home, as I said in the other thread, I use a 10mm or thereabouts socket to push mine home with, and a small hammer, I tap until the sound goes 'dead'. None of the seals I have fitted have deformed doing this. With a valve still in place you will likely need a deep socket or even a piece of tube the right diameter, but perfectly doable. The problem is if you don't get them fully home, the valve spring retainer/collets will start smashing their way into the seal every time the valve opens -I doubt I need to tell you this isn't very good for it.... You should be able to measure the depth of the seals internally, and measure the guide height above the valve spring seat, subtract one from the other and you will know how much of a gap you need underneath each seal to ensure it is home. Either that, or measure the seal overall height, internal height, subtract one from the other, add it to the height of guide above the deck, and measure each as you install to ensure overall height is equal to that You're a bright chap, you will work it out Admire your perseverance, let's just hope it's not your turbo seals Thanks for your detailed advice! I did start measuring and then stopped and I used a13mm 1/2" drive socket to persuade them home fully but they simply aren't as firmly seated as those that I removed. I will try again!! I won't give up! Turbo seals???? Could they give this transient blue smoke too rather than smoke all the time??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Well if they drip overnight... Could even be head gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 I have successfully used bearmach seals if you want to try others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Blue smoke on a diesel is very unlikely to do at all with valve stem seals. That is a petrol thing. Most likely an injection problem or low compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Well if they drip overnight... Could even be head gasket. Blue smoke on a diesel is very unlikely to do at all with valve stem seals. That is a petrol thing. Most likely an injection problem or low compression. Oh heck - and I did do some research! So these are possible reasons for blue smoke at start-up and not normal running??? I don't have the experience to know these exact failure modes - a head gasket passing oil only when cold or a turbo doing the same - not things I've heard about but it does open things up. I think that where I am now I really need to establish if these seals are installed and functioning correctly. Only when I'm sure (and I'm not at this mo) will I look at these other possible causes. So perhaps I'll try another brand as cackshifter suggests... I have successfully used bearmach seals if you want to try others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 People that blame valve stem seals for blue start up smoke on diesel are simply not very knowledgeable. 99% of the time, if you get smoke and is clears in the first 30 seconds of driving, it means that one cylinder is not firing until the engine load gets high enough to get that cylinder hot. The most common reasons are a poor spray pattern or poor compression in the cylinder. The smoke is unburnt fuel from that cylinder. Leakage past valve stem seals provide very small amounts of oil and that would not result in any noticeable smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 surely running on three cylinders would be noticeable ? Both in performance and uneven tickover and running . Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Leakage past valve stem seals provide very small amounts of oil and that would not result in any noticeable smoke. I know it is a petrol, but you try telling that to my Audi. I fail to see how oil in the exhaust port will not cause blue smoke as it burns off? Hot exhaust gasses heating oil = blue smoke whatever fuel it is....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 People that blame valve stem seals for blue start up smoke on diesel are simply not very knowledgeable. 99% of the time, if you get smoke and is clears in the first 30 seconds of driving, it means that one cylinder is not firing until the engine load gets high enough to get that cylinder hot. The most common reasons are a poor spray pattern or poor compression in the cylinder. The smoke is unburnt fuel from that cylinder. Leakage past valve stem seals provide very small amounts of oil and that would not result in any noticeable smoke. Thanks Red90. I can see that I'm obviously going to need to broaden my thinking here. I know it is a petrol, but you try telling that to my Audi. I fail to see how oil in the exhaust port will not cause blue smoke as it burns off? Hot exhaust gasses heating oil = blue smoke whatever fuel it is....? Thanks Bowie69 First though I have to be sure about the seals. So I'll go to Paddocks in the morning and buy some Bearmach brand. It's a forty mile round trip but very scenic through the Chatswoth estate. It's worth a second set seeing as I've gone so far and the little tool is easy to use to change them. If that's no good then it sounds like either injectors or compression test - not sure how soon I can arrange the test or where. I might even go for the injectors tomorrow on sale or return! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Another cause of blue smoke is slightly retarded timing of the injector pump . Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 23, 2016 Author Share Posted April 23, 2016 Would that be blue smoke all the time though or could it also cause this first 200m smoke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheffield Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 When you say slightly retarded injector pump timing, do you mean that when the engine was timed the timing pin did not quite fit properly, or is it possible to get the timing correct, ie pins all in properly, and still be enough out to give this blue smoke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 If the pins locate correctly in the crank and IP then all should be good , not sure when yours was last done , but it may be worth checking when you have got the stem seal fitting sorted out if it is still smoking on cold start up . It's important when doing the timing when fitting a new belt to slacken the three bolts holding the pulley to the IP hub to allow precise timing when pinned . cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 When my timing was slightly out I got a lot of white smoke when cold, no blue though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepé le Pew Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 Is the smoke really blue or is it greyish? If grey it is definitely unburnt diesel. I have a very good 2,25 petrol from Turner in my serie 2a that hase a tendency to blow the valve seals of the exhaust valve guides. This doesn't really effect oil consumption because that is minimal and it doen't smoke at all. It only gives a blue puff of smoke after it has been idling for a long time and then only at the first blip of the throttle. The only time I get permanent blue smoke is when off-roading and the right hand side of the truck is a lot higher than the left i.e on a sideslope. My explanation. All the oil under the valve cover then runs down to the left side of the cilinderhead and some of it gets into the combustion chambers via the exhaust valve guides. So if you want to test if your smoke is caused by the valve seals you could put the driverside up a bank and see if it starts to smoke. Eric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 23, 2016 Author Share Posted April 23, 2016 Ercc - It's blue and is only during the first 200m. Went to Paddock's counter this morning; a bit frustrating as the queue was about 40mins even with two serving. People going in for "what part do I need?" consultations and massive lists that require three carries from warehouse to the counter. Doubly frustrating as they had no Bearmach seals even though their website says usually in stock. So I took eight in a blue bag instead. I wouldn't normally fit 'critical' parts from a blue bag/box but in this case I really want to check some more seals for the fit to the guides. If they do solve the problem (having doubts with all the other potential causes that have been highlighted) then if they were to fail later it's an easy job to change again. Also picked-up a 17mm nut from elsewhere in case I need to make-up a slide hammer to remove my injectors - but I can't tell if it has the required 1.5mm pitch or not till I crack an injector pipe and try it. I'm not doing that yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 Just BTW I think 300 injectors are 14mm; perhaps an adult could confirm? A slide hammer does make getting them out relatively easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted April 24, 2016 Author Share Posted April 24, 2016 Ah, did I buy 14 but write 17 or did I buy 17?! I don't know - put it down to age. I'll go and have a look... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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