The saga of my valve stem seals

[Peaklander]

A bit of an update. I did the job again (lost count how many times now). The first thing I saw was yet again a seal had lifted from the bottom:

So I removed all eight LR genuine seals that I fitted last week. They pulled-off the valve guides just with hand pressure - no need for pliers as the originals had needed so not really a proper fit at all.

Before fitting the Britpart ones I had a good look at one of them alongside the LR Gen ones and I couldn't see any difference - none at all.

The little ridges to retain on the guides look just the same and the seal material is the same colour. I didn't use callipers to measure them but there's no way I would be able to separate them from a visual check, if they became mixed.

I wiped clean the top of the guides so that they were dry and when I pressed down and used a 13mm 1/2" socket as suggested, gently tapping with a leather hammer, this time these ones really feel as though they are on tight. Every one was the same - so either it's cleaning the oil off that's done it or they are marginally smaller.

This time they wouldn't pull back up off the guides and I feel far more confident that they are down and will stay down. So it's back together again but I won't be starting up until the morning - hopefully its going to be a good result.

[Bowie69]

Fingers crossed for tomorrow

[Peaklander]

After spending time schutzing the underneath whilst it was dry, eventually it was time to try the engine. This time there was some blue smoke but not much as before but a lot of grey / white. I continued up the hill to get it warm and then came home .

It has occasionally done this over the last twelve months- just not very often. (It doesn't use any water and hasn't ever, even going up to 2,500m in the alps).

I decided to see what the the injectors would be like to remove with the engine warm - a job I have never done before. If an easy job then I'd get them checked to eliminate them or otherwise.

To my surprise they all came out very easily. I had bought the 14mm (not 17mm) nut in readiness for a slide hammer fabrication but it was the wrong thread - but it did help as there was just enough purchase to gently lever-up under it.

So all four injectors are going on a spa break to Sheffield in the morning for a full course of treatment.

Here they are before:

Then I had another look at the valve stem seals. I could see through the springs and one looked out of position (#3 exhaust). I removed the spring and all I can say is that there is quite a lot of resistance around the seal near the top of the valve. I presume that this is greater than the force needed to pull the seal off the guide.

After lots of wiping and trial fitting - of an old seal and of one of the now unused genuine seals, I finally gave the stem a very slight rub with WnD paper and I think it might be ok. I made doubly sure that the seal was pushed down onto the guide.

I really don't know what else to do and I hope this is enough. It's not rocket science but its outwitting me. At least the other seven are secure on the guides, at least so far.

So back to the injectors - I've never seen one before so don't know what to expect. I'm sure that the guys at Sheaf Diesel Services in Sheffield will sort them as they have fantastic testimonials. Doing it this way works out a little cheaper than going for new - plus I find out what condition they are in.

I hope this isn't too much of a ramble. It is very frustrating in that a job that I thought would be straightforward, hasn't been - but not because of the method - more due to the tolerances involved with those seals. I might well find that the injectors are causing far more of my smoking woes than the seals - or it might still be timing or head gasket. Still there's just under four weeks till the ferry...

If you've got this far reading my efforts tonight then you deserve a medal

[qwakers]

ive used this to good effect in similar sealing situations... but no guarantees...

https://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-401610/bondloc-b63850.html?gclid=CJ3ju5PHqswCFaoy0wodqwgK7g

[Peaklander]

Ok, well I didn't think that far forward! Yes maybe I could use that - in fact I have some loctite version of the same. I think it's bearing retainer - used it in a series gearbox. If i need to look at the seal again I could try it. Still thinking it's me though but gawd knows what I'm doing wrong. Groan.

[qwakers]

bearing fit wont work because it needs to be compressed to practically nothing before it will cure. this stuff is designed to fill tiny gaps (0.2mm) and will go off in 5 mins and cure fully in 24hrs, after which it has a 30 N/mm² shear rating. (yes that was straight of the datsheet lol)

my point being, although expensive, its great stuff and i wouldnt be without a bottle of it.

[Peaklander]

Ok thanks. It might be just what's needed.

[Jamie_grieve]

I have to be honest, I think you have a problem with your turbo.

Turbo diesels rely on boost pressure to fill the cylinders, even on idle there's no appreciable vacuum which is why they have vacuum pumps for the brakes.

Petrol engines can generate blue smoke from stem seals but it would be unlikely on level ground from a diesel.

Unburned diesel generates white smoke as it does generally from retarded timing or a failed injector.
Glazed bores from excessive idling can also cause what you describe too.

When's the last time your oil was changed? Faulty injectors will cause it to become contaminated much faster than normal.

How profusely does your crank case breather vent?

Following with interest to hear what it is.

[Peaklander]

Just changed all oils and filters. Previous oil changed about 12months / 7,000 miles ago.

The injectors is now quick and easy. TBH if I'd known before how easy they were to remove they'd have been out long ago.

After this it's either head or turbo I suppose. I can check the timing first but will need to read up and work out what I can use as pins.

[Bowie69]

You can just pull the hose off the turbo, look for oil and give it a wiggle much easier than setting timing

[Jamie_grieve]

You can just pull the hose off the turbo, look for oil and give it a wiggle much easier than setting timing

Exactly, apologies for not being more clear in my response.

[Peaklander]

Posted a reply earlier (well didn't post it somehow!).

Yes I should have mentioned that I wiggled the turbo a few days ago and took a pic so I could see the vanes.

There's no play sideways but a bit front to back so I think that's OK isn't it?

I haven't looked in the pipes for some time but when I did (needed to change the short one to the intercooler) there wasn't any oil in there. I'll look again though.

Dropped off the injectors at crack of dawn so I'm looking forward to hearing how they test and seeing them in re-furbished condition. Not sure when that will be. I also picked-up some of that BondLoc B638 on the way through Sheffield so thank you for the advice on that. It's there on the shelf now if that stem seal continues to wander.

[Peaklander]

Just heard back from the injector specialists and they say they are all ok. They'll come back nice and clean but with no reconditioning required. As far as I know they have been in for about 110K miles.

I think I will look at the turbo hoses and then think about slightly advancing the timing - but I need to read-up on that.

[honitonhobbit]

Ref the timing - take it back to factory marks that loosen the bolts on the pulley and twist a snadge to the right

[honitonhobbit]

I'm also surprised that at 110k the injectors are okay...

[Peaklander]

Opened the inspection plate and here is the view: (note it's not been set to TDC yet)

I don't have a viscous fan spanner so it's a bit cramped but this is where I need to be I think.

I turn the engine on the crank pulley until I can get a 9.5 drill into that hole at 11 o'clock.

Then I look up through the wading plug hole to see if the flywheel mark is visible.

If it is then OK if not I turn the engine around further, feel for another hole on the pump and check underneath again.

That's all I need to do at the flywheel - no need to pin it's just a check that I'm at TDC. Then it's all about a slight clockwise turn of the pump on the big nut with the three screws slackened enough.

I that it? (Can try yet as need to pickup injectors later.)

Edited April 26, 2016 by Peaklander

[dailysleaze]

Also be aware that the flywheel can be 180 degrees out, so if you don't see the mark when the pin is in the injection pump, then rotate the engine another full turn to be sure.

[Peaklander]

I know that a pic of a set of cleaned injectors isn't exactly earth shattering but here are mine. They have been ultrasonically cleaned and then tested, with each being declared OK. That cost £12 in total (2.50 +vat each) including new injector washer and a set of eight banjo washers too. I think the good thing about the company that tested is that they didn't unnecessarily refurb and charge me.

I know I have good injectors now and I can turn to other causes.

I will refit this morning and re-run the engine. The only other change made is that I found that one new stem seal sitting high - but I'd already pushed it down and reset the tappets before learning about the BondLoc.

As it's minus 1 here it should be a coldish start. Next port of call is that slight advance of the pump timing.

[toenden]

Hi,

I have had similar smoke issues. I could se a light bluish smoke only right after startup, only for some 30 seconds and only visible when the vehicle was not moving. I tried with some luck to adjust the timing as the smoke came after an timing belt change. I used a 9,5 drill and a sirline socket with a 6,5 drill as timing pin in the flywheel, so I thought it everything was fine. Last weekend I redid the timing this time using a micrometer in the pump to measure the pumpstroke. According to the manual the pump should have a rice of 1,54mm at tdc, and after some precise adjustment of tdc the pump was readjusted using the micrometer. Although I had used the 9,5 mm drill originally it was a bit of on the micrometer so I readjusted. The car wouldnt start afterwords! -Tracked this down to a faulty liftpump so that was changed aswell.

The smoke is gone now! And the car pulls better and runs some 60 degrees lower in egt at cruising speeds. Unfortunately I dont know if it was the readjustment or the liftpump that made a difference, but I suspect the timing as it seems a bit odd if a liftpump should fail at the same time as I changed the timingbelt... :-)

Regards mads

[cackshifter]

Suggests you have advanced the timing. Incidentally the rise of 1.54 is for EGR equipped engines. If the EGR is blanked, should one go for the 1.4mm rise in line with the pre-EGR setting? (Ie more advanced)? Just to throw a slight spanner in the ointment, I have a 300tdi 90 to which I fitted a VNT turbo at the same time as a timing belt and clutch change. The old turbo compressor vanes were almost touching the case, so it was pretty tired. It used to blue smoke like mad on the overrun for about 30 seconds after a cold start, but to my surprise that has gone now; I am assuming the turbo produces enough pressure to keep the oil from dropping down the valve guides now (in which case do I really want any seals on there? But suggests also a weak turbo could make iffy seals seem worse.

[Peaklander]

Thanks for the continued interest in this saga - and what a saga it is. This morning I refitted the injectors with nice new copper washers and ran down the road and back with plenty of smoke. First issue to solve was to tighten everything up as diesel was spraying a bit. That's my inexperience and fear of over tightening the unions.

To nip-up the injector pipes it's easier if the rocker cover is off - then you can get an open end spanner on the injector to hold it. At the same time, I had a cursory glance through the valve springs and I managed to see two seals that had lifted off the guides. After all my efforts I still can't get this right.

Now no-one on here knows me personally but I'd like to declare that I'm not as useless as it might seem and can usually do stuff correctly. This particular job started as a sort of "well no harm in seeing if it's the seals" and the 'head-on' method makes it a very straightforward job.

If only the seals would stay located and if only I had enough hair to get hold of, then I could pull it out. I think I'm going to use that Bondloc 638 now on all eight.

[qwakers]

just leave it 24hours for it to cure fully before starting it...

[Peaklander]

Yes OK although I'll need to spin it by hand just to get the other pistons to TDC to re-seal those valves too. That should be OK...?

[qwakers]

yeah you wont cause any appreciable oil pressure and as for compression, you could always pop the injectors back out...

[Peaklander]

Ok thanks - finished tearing out my hair - onwards and upwards now.